If you guys haven’t read the book “Until the Sea Shall Free Them” by Robert Frump you should pick it up.
[QUOTE=Bayrunner;170079]If you guys haven’t read the book “Until the Sea Shall Free Them” by Robert Frump you should pick it up.[/QUOTE]
I have a copy at home. I highly recommend it.
With a reported list of 15 degrees, how does that affect the ability to deploy the two lifeboats? And how exactly would the gravity davits work to lower the lifeboats into the churning seas? Is it automatic or must it be manually operated?
With all due respect, no. You may feel sad, but somehow your grief doesn’t top your incessant need to constantly assert how correct you are with absolutely no tact. Nor does your grief even come close to the families directly affected by this, and to pretend it does is a mockery to those intimately involved. What possible good does your negativity bring other than to serve your own narcissistic ends if it turns out you’re correct?
Hope may very well be the only thing these families have left. If there are survivors, hope is quite possibly the only thing keeping them going. If they adopted your defeatist mentality, or if the searchers tossed in the towel because they began looking at the “futility of it all” then any possible chance of a miracle is forfeited. For the love of all our brothers out there, can’t you please show some compassion for once and stay your tongue unless you have something positive to say?
With all sincerity, you hold considerable esteem on this forum c.captain, perhaps a word of kindness could help remarkably more than you think.
[QUOTE=Reginald Strainworth III;170082]With a reported list of 15 degrees, how does that affect the ability to deploy the two lifeboats? And how exactly would the gravity davits work to lower the lifeboats into the churning seas? Is it automatic or must it be manually operated?[/QUOTE]
Only back at the maritime academy do I have experience with open top lifeboats, where we had a gravity davit trainer with an open topped. The process involved releasing the gripes, lowering to the embarkation deck, securing with frapping lines, boarding, releasing the tricing pendants, lowering to waters edge, releasing the boat from the falls with a lever on the boat, then releasing the painter. SOLAS requirements require the davits to be operable up to 15 degree list.
Not sure the requirements in the industry for this type of set up, but I assume 1) the hooks are of the off-load type, and 2) the davit has some sort of cable system to allow the operator to be in the lifeboat when lifting the brake, which an inclosed lifeboat has both and 3) hopefully they didn’t need to be lowered to an embarkation deck first, thus reducing several steps.
Honestly in those seas, maybe I’m wrong, but I’d rather be in one of the rafts as compared to an open top boat. Yes the 15 degree list would be problematic but the real problem is the roll and how much of a roll they were taking. I’ve been on a ship that was rolling almost 30 degrees. Actually it was my first or second night at sea as a freshman at one of the maritime academies. We even lost power and steering for a very brief while, but it was quickly restored. In the morning all of our stores were completely smashed. It makes it almost impossible to work. The only thing you can do is try to keep the vessel from going broadside to the waves.
In school we trained on open top boats with gravity davits and did all of our assessments on them. I’m confidant that I could safely lower one in good weather. I don’t think I would even attempt it in that weather though. The life rafts could be launched by throwing them overboard with the sea painter tied to the deck, it’d probably take two people to do but I think that would be my choice. Of course your number one choice is to stay on the ship as long as possible, until your ordered to abandon or she sinks under your feet. But by then it might be to late to be in a position to escape. If she sank, all of the life rafts, occupied or not, should be found because of the hydrostatic release.
[QUOTE=LI_Domer;170087] If she sank, all of the life rafts, occupied or not, should be found because of the hydrostatic release.[/QUOTE]
Man you would think they would find those soon, hopefully with the crew as well. Also should be a VDR and EPIRB floating too.
[QUOTE=kfSeadog;170085]With all due respect, no. You may feel sad, but somehow your grief doesn’t top your incessant need to constantly assert how correct you are with absolutely no tact. Nor does your grief even come close to the families directly affected by this, and to pretend it does is a mockery to those intimately involved. What possible good does your negativity bring other than to serve your own narcissistic ends if it turns out you’re correct?
Hope may very well be the only thing these families have left. If there are survivors, hope is quite possibly the only thing keeping them going. If they adopted your defeatist mentality, or if the searchers tossed in the towel because they began looking at the “futility of it all” then any possible chance of a miracle is forfeited. For the love of all our brothers out there, can’t you please show some compassion for once and stay your tongue unless you have something positive to say?
With all sincerity, you hold considerable esteem on this forum c.captain, perhaps a word of kindness could help remarkably more than you think.[/QUOTE]
As a visitor to this forum, I am extremely appreciative of the information that has been shared but am somewhat shocked at the negativity expressed by some. Seadog’s post expresses my sentiment exactly. My heart aches for the whole Mariner community, but especially for the family and friends of the captain and crew. Out of respect for those impacted, I ask that everyone please refrain from making statements that may diminish the HOPE that MOST are holding on to.
A news report I just read said: “The crew reported that the ship had lost power, had taken on water and was listing 15 degrees but that the situation was “manageable,” in their last communication on Thursday morning, TOTE Maritime Puerto Rico, said. They have not been heard from since.”
To those of you with experience on similar vessels: Under what circumstances would you describe such a loss of power in heavy seas as manageable? This is not a rhetorical question. Would the crew have any reason to downplay problems, in communications to ship management? Would management know the exact nature of a power failure, that is, would the crew convey that type of information to them?
I sailed on the Lurline for Matson which is a similar vessel. You can see that ship in Seattle laid up when you drive from the airport to town. I wonder if the side ramp door stove in and it turned turtle. I did some night work on the Old Puerto Rican Marine vessel Bayamon in 86.
The US government did little for the crew of the ship. It was the weekend and they USCG didn’t want their time off infringed upon. I was just held up by the port Gestapo (USCG) in Seattle for 3 hours (US flag ship in a domestic trade, no overseas ports). Weekday boarding between 9-5 (business hours) There were 10 cop cars/suvs/ ICBP/ 6-8 USCG nazi type security people.
These USCG clowns couldn’t find their asses with both hands. They need to get off their asses and do what they were founded on (Marine Rescue) Check out the USCG (Homeland Security Office) on the waterfront in Boston. It probably rents for 100K a month. The USCG used to use an office out of their base right down the street (that is paid for). Write your senators and congressman and reduce funding for these clowns as they are useless anyway. The USCG pilots during Katrina were heros and so are the people out there looking for the EL FARO. The useless deadwood bums harassing seamen in port need to be sent to sea or sent home.
USCG press breifing at 10:00 am today (Moday)
Coast Guard to hold press briefing on search for El Faro
MIAMI – The Coast Guard will hold a press briefing to provide updated information on the search for the El Faro at Coast Guard Air Station Miami, at 10 a.m. Monday.
Who: Capt. Mark Fedor, chief of response for the Coast Guard 7th District.
What: The Coast Guard will hold a press briefing to provide updated information on the search for the El Faro.
When: 10 a.m. Monday
Where: Coast Guard Air Station Miami, 14750 NW 44th Ct., Opa Locka, Florida
Editor’s Note: Only credentialed media will be allowed access to the press briefing. Media must arrive by 9:30 a.m. in order to ensure access to Air Station Miami. Media may RSVP by contacting the Coast Guard 7th District public affairs office at 305-415-6683 or 786-367-7649.
[QUOTE=Too bad steam is gone;170093]I sailed on the Lurline for Matson which is a similar vessel. You can see that ship in Seattle laid up when you drive from the airport to town. I wonder if the side ramp door stove in and it turned turtle. I did some night work on the Old Puerto Rican Marine vessel Bayamon in 86.
The US government did little for the crew of the ship. It was the weekend and they USCG didn’t want their time off infringed upon. I was just held up by the port Gestapo (USCG) in Seattle for 3 hours (US flag ship in a domestic trade, no overseas ports). Weekday boarding between 9-5 (business hours) There were 10 cop cars/suvs/ ICBP/ 6-8 USCG nazi type security people.
These USCG clowns couldn’t find their asses with both hands. They need to get off their asses and do what they were founded on (Marine Rescue) Check out the USCG (Homeland Security Office) on the waterfront in Boston. It probably rents for 100K a month. The USCG used to use an office out of their base right down the street (that is paid for). Write your senators and congressman and reduce funding for these clowns as they are useless anyway. The USCG pilots during Katrina were heros and so are the people out there looking for the EL FARO. The useless deadwood bums harassing seamen in port need to be sent to sea or sent home.[/QUOTE]
This is the most embarrassing thing I’ve read on this forum, ever. I am here to read the accounts of other maritime professionals regarding this crisis, not read random screeds.
[QUOTE=MariaW;170092]A news report I just read said: “The crew reported that the ship had lost power, had taken on water and was listing 15 degrees but that the situation was “manageable,” in their last communication on Thursday morning, TOTE Maritime Puerto Rico, said. They have not been heard from since.”
To those of you with experience on similar vessels: Under what circumstances would you describe such a loss of power in heavy seas as manageable? This is not a rhetorical question. Would the crew have any reason to downplay problems, in communications to ship management? Would management know the exact nature of a power failure, that is, would the crew convey that type of information to them?[/QUOTE]
I sailed on the Northern Lights in '99-'00. The ship had two boilers, each with only one forced draft blower. Two turbogenerators. Two feed pumps, if I remember correctly there was also an electric feed pump.
A steady 15deg list could play havoc with the boiler water level alarms. The alarms have a time delay, to allow for rolling, but if a steady list was present, you might trip the boilers due to low/high water level alarms, wherever the water is going.
I don’t remember whether there was any interlock between the boilers tripping and the T/G’s, it never came up while I was there. With some automation, if you lose fires in both boilers then the D/G will start and once it connects the T/G’s will trip to preserve steam. If the automation doesn’t do it, then the the watch engineer either needs to get a fire in at least one boiler, or trip the T/G’s themselves. This takes balls to intentionally blackout the ship even if you’ve lost the fires, and it’s rare that a 3/E or 2/E will do this. A huge “please explain” will follow.
If you can’t get a fire in boiler, the clock is ticking. You need to bite the bullet and trip the T/G’s and bottle up a boiler. Very important to try and preserve steam in at least one boiler. If one boiler has even 200# of steam remaining, once you stabilize, get the D/G online, you can get a fuel heater going and get a heavy fuel fire in the boiler. If not, you’ll have to fire on diesel to raise steam pressure high enough in one boiler to get a heavy fuel fire going in the other boiler, talking hours here.
So a “manageable” scenario is that they lost all steam, but have a diesel fire going and are getting ready to fire a boiler on heavy fuel. Very realistic that they had an engineroom casualty but thought it was contained and they were on the upswing.
[QUOTE=MariaW;170092]A news report I just read said: “The crew reported that the ship had lost power, had taken on water and was listing 15 degrees but that the situation was “manageable,” in their last communication on Thursday morning, TOTE Maritime Puerto Rico, said. They have not been heard from since.”
To those of you with experience on similar vessels: Under what circumstances would you describe such a loss of power in heavy seas as manageable? This is not a rhetorical question. Would the crew have any reason to downplay problems, in communications to ship management? Would management know the exact nature of a power failure, that is, would the crew convey that type of information to them?[/QUOTE]
Answer to your questions.
- “Under what circumstances would you describe such a loss of power in heavy seas as manageable?” This was a hurricane, not just heavy seas. Without power I do not see how the situation was manageable, I would say the chance is zero the situation was manageable without propulsion in the middle of a hurricane.
- Any information you may have read that the company has passed on to the public or USCG has been cleared by the company’s attorneys.Keep that in mind.
tengineer
[QUOTE=capnfab;169758]If I had to go to sea into a Cat 4 hurricane in anything other than a thousand foot long merchant ship, it would be on a Crowley Invader class boat.
I wish them all luck and a safe return.[/QUOTE]
Yup, they are wet boats but sealed up they can run just about through anything. I remember towing and SL-7 through 30+ seas off of Hatteras. . . . . not pleasant at all . . .
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[QUOTE=CJ_RORO;169803]They are were doing work on the vessel
Something to do with pipes .[/QUOTE]
You sure about that? Hmmm. . . .
[QUOTE=MariaW;170092]A news report I just read said: “The crew reported that the ship had lost power, had taken on water and was listing 15 degrees but that the situation was “manageable,” in their last communication on Thursday morning, TOTE Maritime Puerto Rico, said. They have not been heard from since.”
To those of you with experience on similar vessels: Under what circumstances would you describe such a loss of power in heavy seas as manageable? This is not a rhetorical question. Would the crew have any reason to downplay problems, in communications to ship management? Would management know the exact nature of a power failure, that is, would the crew convey that type of information to them?[/QUOTE]
I worked on a diesel powered car carrier that took a very bad roll in a hurricane and it tripped the main engine on low lube oil pressure, without the ability to steer the ship you are at the mercy of the sea. Things that were bolted to the deck like generator spares came loose and started moving around. They regained power within minutes and were able to maneuver safely in the storm.
I’ve been on the Matson Luriline but not any of the Sea Star ships so I can’t really compare experiences. I have seen ships downplay emergencies so that they wouldn’t have to go off hire, however I doubt anyone would do that in the case of a 15 degree list.
From the El Faro Incident FAQ:
http://elfaroincident.com/resources/faqs/
“What lifesaving equipment is onboard the vessel?
El Faro has 2 lifeboats – one lifeboat on each side of the ship. Each is designed to be unsinkable even if full of water and full of crew. The lifeboats can be launched without ships power from their gravity davits. Each lifeboat can hold 43 persons and has survival rations onboard.
The lifeboats on the El Faro are open type, each certified to carry 43 people. One is propelled by manual power and the other by a small diesel engine.”
Manual power! That means oars or the Fleming gear. If that were my option, I’d look for the liferaft. I’d much prefer to see a stern launched free fall lifeboat.
[QUOTE=catherder;170073]I’m late to the thread and didn’t read it all, but I will say that there is nastiness going on in other forums, too. There’s a facebook page for mariners that I just left because some sonofabitch made a nasty comment to me about something that other engineers in my company did and I’ll tell you, had he said it to me personally he would have been removing bar stool from his teeth. I won’t put up with it. It was in a discussion about EL FARO. No place for that crap.
I’m getting underway tomorrow and our internet here is shitty so I probably won’t be around much the next two weeks.
Anyway, I’m with you, there is no room for obnoxious behavior especially at time like this when we should be unified.[/QUOTE]
Oh, that was you? I didn’t see the post as much was taken down. . . . I have been careful to restrain my posting, but much of what I am seeing and reading are comments and speculation from those with little or no experience in the matter. . . . I hope against hope that this will end on as positive note as it can. . .
[QUOTE=tengineer1;170103]Answer to your questions.
- “Under what circumstances would you describe such a loss of power in heavy seas as manageable?” This was a hurricane, not just heavy seas. Without power I do not see how the situation was manageable, I would say the chance is zero the situation was manageable without propulsion in the middle of a hurricane.
- Any information you may have read that the company has passed on to the public or USCG has been cleared by the company’s attorneys.Keep that in mind.
tengineer[/QUOTE]
I could be wrong, but the first story I heard was that the captain reported that ship had been taking on water, but that it had been managed, and they were no longer taking on water. So, I believe he was referring specifically to the water situation, not the whole scenario, which was obviously very dire.
[QUOTE=noice;170105]I worked on a diesel powered car carrier that took a very bad roll in a hurricane and it tripped the main engine on low lube oil pressure, without the ability to steer the ship you are at the mercy of the sea. Things that were bolted to the deck like generator spares came loose and started moving around. They regained power within minutes and were able to maneuver safely in the storm.
I’ve been on the Matson Luriline but not any of the Sea Star ships so I can’t really compare experiences. I have seen ships downplay emergencies so that they wouldn’t have to go off hire, however I doubt anyone would do that in the case of a 15 degree list.[/QUOTE]
In some cases lying ahull in heavy weather may be a viable option, even for a large vessel. It depends on the circumstances. It’s not a tactic that many mariners are familar with and it’s controversal but based on my experience in heavy weather it shouldn’t be ruled out, especially not based on only one experience.
Depending on the seas etc, when the ship regains power you may not be able to improve the situation significantly by maneuvering under power or only be able to improve things only marginally.