OSV definition?

[QUOTE=Saltine;130953]Man, I know women that complain less than you do. For someone so sick of the “bayou” you sure do stay involved in its happenings a whole bunch.[/QUOTE]

I call it being informed…try it sometime!

and that goes for you too there Mr Rubber…

Whatever Dude. You’re pure entertainment for me Mr. KnowItAll.

I cant believe we are going to sail this narrow channel again…lord knows we are never going to come to a passing arrangement on this one c.capt.

As for the watch system, I just dont see it working out well. Most OSV’s carry enough crew (16+) to be close. One problem would be customer requirements. Most of the majors require two officers on watch. They are willing to pay for it but a 3 watch system now changes that from 4 officers/DPO’s to 6 plus a “floating” master…never gonna happen. Now assume everyone wants even time, thats 13-14 officers to man one 300’ OSV! We are experiencing crew shortages as it is. Add 2 riggers per watch for a total of 6 and 4 engineers plus oilers and you are looking at a 20 man crew so a rotation of 40+ to man ONE BOAT.

As for the labor situation…if unions are so great then why is US shipping dead and the money is found at the non union companies? Southern car factories have much higher employee satisfaction rates than Detroit. Most of us believe in honest work, honest pay not I got a contract, fuck you. Thats just how it is. If i decide that I feel Im not being treated as I should, I vote with my feet. Unions are big business and benefit the union bosses more than the membership. For someone who hate “Joe Boss” as much as you, surely “Joe Union Leader” is just as bad if not worse. I can speak for myself and cut out the middle man skimming my checks…

I do agree that the terminology is flawed. If Im not “lead”, Im not “captain”. It really boils down to the payroll people. They pay according to your license, then your ranking on the vessel. If you only hold a mates license then you will be paid less than a “master” even if you are both technically mates on the billet. Somewhere along the line it got out of control.

Enjoy typing your typical “Joe Boss” reply…I respectfully sound one short and intend to see you on my port side sir.

OH, JUST WANTED TO SEE HOW IT FEELS TO YELL ON THE WEB. THE VOICE IN MY HEAD AS I TYPE IS LOUDER THAN I EXPECTED…

[QUOTE=rigdvr;130964]I cant believe we are going to sail this narrow channel again…lord knows we are never going to come to a passing arrangement on this one c.capt.

As for the watch system, I just dont see it working out well. Most OSV’s carry enough crew (16+) to be close. One problem would be customer requirements. Most of the majors require two officers on watch. They are willing to pay for it but a 3 watch system now changes that from 4 officers/DPO’s to 6 plus a “floating” master…never gonna happen. Now assume everyone wants even time, thats 13-14 officers to man one 300’ OSV! We are experiencing crew shortages as it is. Add 2 riggers per watch for a total of 6 and 4 engineers plus oilers and you are looking at a 20 man crew so a rotation of 40+ to man ONE BOAT.

As for the labor situation…if unions are so great then why is US shipping dead and the money is found at the non union companies? Southern car factories have much higher employee satisfaction rates than Detroit. Most of us believe in honest work, honest pay not I got a contract, fuck you. Thats just how it is. If i decide that I feel Im not being treated as I should, I vote with my feet. Unions are big business and benefit the union bosses more than the membership. For someone who hate “Joe Boss” as much as you, surely “Joe Union Leader” is just as bad if not worse. I can speak for myself and cut out the middle man skimming my checks…

I do agree that the terminology is flawed. If Im not “lead”, Im not “captain”. It really boils down to the payroll people. They pay according to your license, then your ranking on the vessel. If you only hold a mates license then you will be paid less than a “master” even if you are both technically mates on the billet. Somewhere along the line it got out of control.

Enjoy typing your typical “Joe Boss” reply…I respectfully sound one short and intend to see you on my port side sir.

OH, JUST WANTED TO SEE HOW IT FEELS TO YELL ON THE WEB. THE VOICE IN MY HEAD AS I TYPE IS LOUDER THAN I EXPECTED…[/QUOTE]

To my knowledge BP doesn’t want the Master to stand a watch on the vessels it has contracted. You’re absolutely correct that the crew compliment would get out of control very quickly and there just aren’t enough people to have 30+ crew dedicated to staffing one vessel. I actually think the manning levels on the small 100 ton vessels are the most ludicrous though. With a COI calling for 4 how can 2 guys operate a boat for 12 hours, pump fuel, water, transfer cargo and do this safely all while following the company and USCG rules? Just doesn’t make any sense.

[QUOTE=Saltine;130970] With a COI calling for 4 how can 2 guys operate a boat for 12 hours, pump fuel, water, transfer cargo and do this safely all while following the company and USCG rules? Just doesn’t make any sense.[/QUOTE]

The COI (called the “Safe Manning Certificate” foreign) has nothing to do with workload. It has to do with what regulators believe a vessel needs in an emergency. A company is free to add more crew if they have more work, they just can’t have less.

Not a bayooooo guy, but is there a difference say between making one guy work two 4 hour watches, and having two guys on watch 12 hours a day? I’d think in all honesty only asking someone to work 4 at a time is just as safe if not safer (at 4am) than two guys barely awake halfway through a 12 hour watch. Thoughts?

With the master floating, he can be in the wheelhouse when prudent to do so. now you have 4 deck officers…add a second 3rd officer (5 officers) and you have two guys (master and c/m) who could float 12 hours each a day.

All fantasy, as never will happen, but just my thoughts if i had to ideally man a vessel for constant close quarters ops.

When we have added a third officer in my experience (normally 2 watch boat) the master and myself split the 3rd guy’s watches to be up in pilotage water, and who will get the initial call under x-circumstance to correspond to our normal watch rotation…not osv OMSA style, just for the sake of arguement.

[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;130971]The COI (called the “Safe Manning Certificate” foreign) has nothing to do with workload. It has to do with what regulators believe a vessel needs in an emergency. A company is free to add more crew if they have more work, they just can’t have less.[/QUOTE]

I understand that but unfortunately in the Gulf of Mexico that’s what companies go by when crewing vessels. Company X with 6 guys on their mini-supply boat can’t compete price wise with Company Y that only has 4 guys onboard. For the deep water OSV’s it’s not as big of a deal being the oil company usually has extra manning that they require or like to see. The shelf market in the GOM is brutal and it’s all driven by the day rate of the vessel. And as always cheaper is better when they’re out looking for a boat to charter.

[QUOTE=rigdvr;130964]I cant believe we are going to sail this narrow channel again…lord knows we are never going to come to a passing arrangement on this one c.capt.

As for the watch system, I just dont see it working out well. Most OSV’s carry enough crew (16+) to be close. One problem would be customer requirements. Most of the majors require two officers on watch. They are willing to pay for it but a 3 watch system now changes that from 4 officers/DPO’s to 6 plus a “floating” master…never gonna happen. Now assume everyone wants even time, thats 13-14 officers to man one 300’ OSV! We are experiencing crew shortages as it is. Add 2 riggers per watch for a total of 6 and 4 engineers plus oilers and you are looking at a 20 man crew so a rotation of 40+ to man ONE BOAT.

As for the labor situation…if unions are so great then why is US shipping dead and the money is found at the non union companies? Southern car factories have much higher employee satisfaction rates than Detroit. Most of us believe in honest work, honest pay not I got a contract, fuck you. Thats just how it is. If i decide that I feel Im not being treated as I should, I vote with my feet. Unions are big business and benefit the union bosses more than the membership. For someone who hate “Joe Boss” as much as you, surely “Joe Union Leader” is just as bad if not worse. I can speak for myself and cut out the middle man skimming my checks…

I do agree that the terminology is flawed. If Im not “lead”, Im not “captain”. It really boils down to the payroll people. They pay according to your license, then your ranking on the vessel. If you only hold a mates license then you will be paid less than a “master” even if you are both technically mates on the billet. Somewhere along the line it got out of control.

Enjoy typing your typical “Joe Boss” reply…I respectfully sound one short and intend to see you on my port side sir.

OH, JUST WANTED TO SEE HOW IT FEELS TO YELL ON THE WEB. THE VOICE IN MY HEAD AS I TYPE IS LOUDER THAN I EXPECTED…[/QUOTE]

Shipping isn’t dead, but it is certainly hurting. It thrives on war, retail good sales, etc., just like you thrive on the oil market.

both industries have cycles, not too long ago big osv master was nowhere near full contract MMP wages, and the mates on OSVs were certainly even further out and that is before an hourly wage argument is entered.

In late 70s and early 80s 3/M on Valdez run (MMP) we’re making at least $14k a month. Wonder how much supply boat mates were making back then???

my point is there is no lead there is no relief. There is one captain (master) at a time, period. All others are mates standing watches.

paying people based on their license and experience vs paying them for their experience and actual level of accountability is a bad idea. It creates dissension on board and towards the office.

that is one thing the unions have right. The captain makes captains wages and the salty old 3m with previous master’s experience gets paid 3m wages. He may not be compensated for his experience, but his vast experience is also not part of his job description.

sounds fair to me.

1st - US shipping is TOTALLY dead. the US is no longer relevant in the world shipping scene where we were the leader for so long.

2cd - The “3rd capt” does not make the same as the master even with equivalent licenses. Each step in the chain is a raise for increased responsibility. We are paid just the way you described only with different office titles.

Zdrive, you arent seeing the whole picture…many oil companies require two on the bridge at all times during DP ops. There can only be a floater if there are five officers on board either doing 12/12 or whatever derivative of splitting a day you want to come up with and 4/4 would suck. 12 isnt bad on an OSV. Most boats with floating masters have masters that are never seen in my experience…

[QUOTE=rigdvr;130964]I
Most of us believe in honest work, honest pay not I got a contract, fuck you. Thats just how it is. If i decide that I feel Im not being treated as I should, I vote with my feet. Unions are big business and benefit the union bosses more than the membership. For someone who hate “Joe Boss” as much as you, surely “Joe Union Leader” is just as bad if not worse. I can speak for myself and cut out the middle man skimming my checks…[/QUOTE]

You actually do belong to a group which was formed to protect your rights and which negotiates the condition of your employment. They do skim your check and the do set the rules when you “speak for yourself”.

As a citizen your work conditions are set by the government in which you have a say and a vote. The government makes and enforces rules, sets a minimum wage, assists you if you lose your job, it may assist you with training and education. If you have a beef you can use the (government provided) justice system to settle it. The government also takes a part of your paycheck if you haven’;t noticed.

One group, the citizenry, negotiates conditions of employment with a second group, the shareholders through their respective agents, the government and the corporation.

Conservatives don’t support unions because of their overriding interest as a member of the shareholders group. They prefer the minimums set by the government in which they have a say. Liberals don’t support unions because they don’t want you joining a group to negotiate your own contract, they want you to depend upon the government.

No, you’re missing my point. It’s a hypothetical, where would someone working 4/8 be fresher than 12/12 and more effective than 2 fatigued watch standers? Obviously you guys do things a certain way, it’s for the sake of discussion I’m asking. If you get away from 2 on watch with 5 officers total with 3 working 4/8 I imagine a safer system. Would be here but we’re never leaving 6/6. No way would I ever suggest 4/4.

At the very least, if 4 guys are standing 12 hour bridge/DP watches, shouldn’t 2 guys be on the 12-12 shift and 2 on the 6-6 shift?

At least one guy will be 6 hrs fresher than the other. Do many 4 mate boats work this way? They don’t where I work, and the concept seems lost on them.

[QUOTE=rigdvr;131022]1st - US shipping is TOTALLY dead. the US is no longer relevant in the world shipping scene where we were the leader for so long.

2cd - The “3rd capt” does not make the same as the master even with equivalent licenses. Each step in the chain is a raise for increased responsibility. We are paid just the way you described only with different office titles.

Zdrive, you arent seeing the whole picture…many oil companies require two on the bridge at all times during DP ops. There can only be a floater if there are five officers on board either doing 12/12 or whatever derivative of splitting a day you want to come up with and 4/4 would suck. 12 isnt bad on an OSV. Most boats with floating masters have masters that are never seen in my experience…[/QUOTE]

Seriously? Totally dead?

Tell that to the thousands of mariners employed by MMP, MEBA, SIU, SUP, MFOW, OSG, ATC, Polar, AMHS, AMO, Crowley, just to name a few.

US shipping is not relevant on a global scale, I agree. However, that is because US manufacturing is barely relevant.

You are off the mark by at least a ship length.

[QUOTE=Johnny Canal;131046]Seriously? Totally dead?

Tell that to the thousands of mariners employed by MMP, MEBA, SIU, SUP, MFOW, OSG, ATC, Polar, AMHS, AMO, Crowley, just to name a few.

US shipping is not relevant on a global scale, I agree. However, that is because US manufacturing is barely relevant.

You are off the mark by at least a ship length.[/QUOTE]

I do not mean to push this further off topic but the MM&P, MEBA, SIU, SUP, MFOW, and AMO are labor organizations. Mariners are employed through them, not by them. OSG, ATC, Polar, AMHS, and Crowley are companies to name a fe[I]w,[/I] that employ mariners.

[QUOTE=z-drive;131039]No, you’re missing my point. It’s a hypothetical, where would someone working 4/8 be fresher than 12/12 and more effective than 2 fatigued watch standers? Obviously you guys do things a certain way, it’s for the sake of discussion I’m asking. If you get away from 2 on watch with 5 officers total with 3 working 4/8 I imagine a safer system. Would be here but we’re never leaving 6/6. No way would I ever suggest 4/4.[/QUOTE]

At a previous company my boss tried to implement the 4/8, 8/4 schedule and we got a whole slew of
pushback. We made a decision to start listening more to the crews, implement ideas geared towards their safety and items to promote crew retention. Only a couple of guys wanted anything to do with it and it was terribly difficult to monitor.

That wasy first experience with guys getting what they asked for and then not wanting it. I see a lot of that in this country these days and it includes the office staff, customer, etc… as well. How many times has a customer promoted safety only to bitch when safety measures cost money and take time?

I had heard a rumor about this kind of system on OSVs possibly being implemented. At the request or interest of an oil company. Two guys on watch is a great idea, but they fatigue at roughly the same rate.

[QUOTE=Chief Seadog;131050]I do not mean to push this further off topic but the MM&P, MEBA, SIU, SUP, MFOW, and AMO are labor organizations. Mariners are employed through them, not by them. OSG, ATC, Polar, AMHS, and Crowley are companies to name a fe[I]w,[/I] that employ mariners.[/QUOTE]

yes, of course they are labor organizations; it was just quicker than naming every single American flag operator.

And the last 5 that you re-referenced, with the exception of Polar are all union on some level or another. OSG and ATC mates are company employees, AMHS is part of MMP, and Crowley is everything from AMO to MEBA/MMP to in-house.

At least 2/3 of all mariners of ATC, OSG, and Crowley shipping (tankers and containers) are there via union dispatch on one level or another.

[QUOTE=gulf_engineer;131052]I had heard a rumor about this kind of system on OSVs possibly being implemented. At the request or interest of an oil company. Two guys on watch is a great idea, but they fatigue at roughly the same rate.[/QUOTE]

i agree they fatigue at that same rate, but this way both guys won’t be spent right as they are handing over the watch ( where shortly after, most accidents typically occur).

its a sad fact that this is some rumor circulating around as opposed to actually being tried out, let alone being instituted by the company or the vessel master.

Maybe the bigger question is who in the hell wants to spend 12 hrs with the same guy day in day out, stuck on some tiny bridge, for 4 weeks at a time?

I wouldn’t care if you were the most interesting man in the world from the Dos Equis commercials or your best drinking buddy from “back in the day,” Same goes for anybody standing watch with me after a few weeks, let alone 3-4 mos, 8 hrs a day, every day.

Familiarity breeds contempt.

30-45 seconds of this guy is great, but would it seem so great for 12hrs a day?!

[QUOTE=gulf_engineer;131052]I had heard a rumor about this kind of system on OSVs possibly being implemented. At the request or interest of an oil company. Two guys on watch is a great idea, but they fatigue at roughly the same rate.[/QUOTE]

I think the most effective method would be to have a 4 man wheelhouse with one man standing each watch schedule as follows:

0001-1200
0600-1800
1200-2400
1800-0600

With this method everyone stands a 12 hour watch but there is a fresh person coming on watch every 6 hours.

[QUOTE=Saltine;131056]I think the most effective method would be to have a 4 man wheelhouse with one man standing each watch schedule as follows:

0001-1200
0600-1800
1200-2400
1800-0600

With this method everyone stands a 12 hour watch but there is a fresh person coming on watch every 6 hours.[/QUOTE]

Visionary…