Always a problem when the engine is put into emergency shutdown . Very sharp fineing of the hull form can cause the flow of water to the rudder to be stopped . Due to hull form design loss of steering can be immediate as rudder relies on flow of water created by the prop. Not a happy experience at 14knots.
I have experience of a ship built for maximum cargo in minimum length not only could it not be steered with engine stopped it could not be steered if engine power dropped below half ahead.
Dr.Bugge.!!! love U for that piece of news !!!. as now the "
Kesselschlacht " of “quasi-experts” may begin.
Negative Sir.
24+ kts speed on this vessel will be achieved after starting “” Load Program " , which lasts about 40 minutes from full manoeuvring revs to full sea speed revs . The "program " in oposite direction =slowing down program from full sea speed back to Full Manoeuvring speed takes abt half of that time .
Of course there is an option on the panel to cancel " load up/down"programs with the seperate button “Cancel load program” or in case of slowing down from full sea revs to full man. revs you can also move the telegrah handle to HAHD position, what will cause “” Cancell load program" button to activate without pressing it.
For this vessel full menoeuvring speed should be abt 15 kts .
Nedless to say one needs to TEST such features to know how it works and if it works. Unfortunately such testing as I metioned before meets a very strong opposition from Engine Dpt due to “” do not touch" attitudes. I am sure You know that if You do not touch sth for 10+ years it may not work as designed when needed.
Rgds
Also re. issue below :
I have mentioned fuel rack problem describing my past experience without intention to suggest such problem was the case on this vessel as I do not know waht was the problem except as per description in the initial article and as per video clip . Both sources claimed the control of M/E revs was imposible.
Always???
So what did You do to rectify the problem???
But I can tell You what I did. I asked kindly Cheng to collect his crew and brainstorm the problem and test it again. And if the problem persisted , then Techt Dpt was called to assist to solve it and it was tested again untill there was no problem. It is a huge waste of money to install this button near the telegraph just to look at it in anticipation that , there always be a “problem” .
Was this ship like “Dali” LOA= 300,.B=48 (mtrs) , Max SW draft 15,02 ???
If so , then I have a good news for You as here is a Gentleman -Alias 244 , and He can tell You how to handle ship like Dal with LPP/B = abt 5.7 with dead engine with speeds (8-6.5 ) or abt. Just contact Him or read the thread on Dali disaster.
Cheers.
Spo
Not so sure. Per Bugge’s info engine sea speed is rated at 104 rpm. We do not know the maneuvering engine speeds for the various telegraph settings. If the vessel is a 24+ kt vessel, HAHD could translate to about 15kts. HAHD may be 50+ rpm and FAHD could be 75-80.
Strange the vessel is docked for so many days. Perhaps is issue is deeper than appears at first blush. Hope the USCG report will shed some light.
Agree and support routine testing emergency stop. Discussing time and place with Cheng is the key. In this case, emergency stop may possibly had a very different outcome.
I am curious to find out if this happened at the first ahead bell. If so, they should have stopped either by the telegraph or emergency when the tugs were there and speed was less than 2 kts.
" about " 15 kts gives me a good margin 
it may be +/- 3% or +/- 5%. .Depends.
I was on 8 ships this size( LOA/B) but deepper max draft ( 14-15 mtr )with identical and/or similar HP. . Abt 15 kts through the water at FAHD manoeuvring was the standard. Do not recall doing more .
But you are an engineer and I do not argue with engineers .I kindly ask them to do some brainstorming and You are right,without manoeuvring speed/revs table we are in the dark meaning my dark is darker then yours
Have spent last three days studying NOAA all charts from berth to sea buoy. And checked the state of tide versus time reported in the initial article. And as per video clips delivered by Dr.Sal she was 13+ kts when passed the first bridge. We do not know the possition of telegraph handle and we do not know when Pilot/master realised sth was wrong. Her reported draft was 11mtr .I do not know if it was average or deepest. But given the draft to available depth ratioo( see Pilot books) , state of tide, and 13.9 kts just below the first bridge I would call ECR to allign their telegraph with bridge and hit the " ECR ctrl" button for ECR to take over and if this would not generate any expected results , believe me I would hit the EMCY Stop button irrespective if Alias 244 likes it or not.
Your curiosity is fully justified.
Strange ??? Well ,the crowd applauded the risky decisions without waiting for the tsunami of rightfull claims that have just started coming… But we will see I am sure my jaw will drop seeing the investigation results if any.
Hi Spo
You remember the vessel design speed and ME rated rpm? Possibly slower ME and high pitch prop (maybe larger dia).
I’ve said it before and will say it again … you certainly do good research.
Transfer of controls IMO would not have made a difference. Question is whether to continue with this speed or risk shut down and not be able to start up. I think when they realized that the throttle was stuck the vessel speed was already 13-15 kts.
Also reasonable to assume that the engine crew monitoring the ME were unaware they had a problem. Telegraph is stepless all the way from DS to FA and sea speed with notches for the positions. Engine crew see the telegraph at DS and assume maybe they have pressed the rpm up for the desired speed. Would be surprised if they called the bridge to say ‘Charleston, we have a problem’.
Better be wearing brown pants to order E-stop at that speed - perhaps a straitjacket for anyone who could press the e-stop. Under the circumstances I think the Pilot and Skipper made the right decision. 244 and others would have done the same.
Aside from all the above and given their stay for so many days in port, wondering if this is a fuel related issue with the individual fuel pumps being so sticky that the governor actuator rated torque is not able to overcome? I am assuming Kongsberg controls with an electronic governor and electric actuator for the fuel rack.
I think the claims are ‘ambulance chasers’. Possibly motivated by the Dali incident.
All in all we should be grateful this incident did not involve any loss of life. Let’s see if the property claim on the lawsuit is justified.
Hi Spo
Just re-read your edited response … you certainly do not mince any words … 
I have good retired marine engineer as my mentor and teacher 
as far as word mincing is concerned.
And forgot to say , that re-diting older comments instead of posting new is encouraged by gCaptain forum “prompts/banners” poping up from time to time. Flagging is easier for the hostiles and it makes life easier for Moderators deleting or hiding the post . Cheers.
You are so sweet really . I see You are a fast learner and have acquired so fast from the “we crowd” their ingratiating techniques . So charming. I am obligated to say -Thank You .
Reverting soon with my chalice of charm
RESEARCH??? Are You kidding Sir???
This is my daily bread as navigator. Reflex action my Dear Chef Engineer. See pls the link .
Would be very happy having access to their berth to berth voyage plan especially their UKC AND SQUAT calculation. I was also fooled by intial report wondering why Bernoulli BEAST did not kick in as it should but pictures and video clips showing the drama came a bit late.
You belittle the small claims power . 100 ambulance chasers worth 1 mil each is how much??? compared to the value of the vessel ???
Did not want to be drawn on this one.
BUT
IMHO the pilot and the master made the totally correct decision.
Better to keep control of the vessel than losing it by pressing the self destruct button and stopping a functioning main engine.
I know Spo has issues with some of the things I have posted particularly with a ship that had a main engine stuck at slow astern during manoeuvring and the emergency stop should have been pressed. I refused at the time to reveal what the cause of this situation was and still the cause Will remain between myself and the ships crew. But
Yes again BUT
If the emergency stop had been pressed at that time we would have collided stern first with a concrete jetty at getting on for 5 knots.
The result of the situation was that there was no damage to any structure or vessel and apart from a few more grey hairs no issues for myself.
I will reveal that this was the one and only time during 23 years of piloting that I actually lost my temper with a ships master and laid into him to the point that I actually said" I have shit better captains than you."
I am not proud of that.
He did retire shortly after that incident and the gene pool for ships masters was greatly enhanced.
You may read into this that myself,plus other pilots had form with this individual and you would be correct.
Sorry got me on a bit of a roll
The following week a sister ship was in the exact same position but this time with a German master and the first thing the master said at the MPX was " pilot, you do know this vessel has a FLEX engine?" Yes I replied I will be careful as FLEX engines ( camless) had a bit of a reputation for failed starts. He then expanded by saying " And they have been making adjustments to it" So I replied I will be VERY careful. " How about this Sir, I will take the vessel off the berth and swing it with tugs only, then when we are head down we will try to start the main engine, if it fires we will continue the passage, and if it does not I will put it back alongside with tugs only"
Yes pilot, sounds like a plan.
The main engine fired and we proceeded on passage.
2 hours into the passage the blooming thing quite and we had to emergency anchor in the main channel for around an hour before they got it going again 
Hi 244
Interesting. Never heard about RT Flex engines prone to starting issues. Wonder if info ever made it to the authorities and possibly requiring tug escorts? Or ‘taking chances’ with fingers crossed and hoping Wartsila/Sulzer would come fix the issue. Sounds very risky.
Hi Spo
I hear your direct sarcasm … but take it you are not pissed … 
Per one of the TV channels report, the vessel was ready to depart on Monday (10th June) and this court order and arrest was a couple of days later. Wonder if the plaintiff’s tried approaching the owners for reasonable compensation and were blown off and they had to resort to this route.
Would be interesting to read the USCG report when they publish.
Apart from engineering topics/issues , where your expert knowledge i dare not deny and/or challenge ( if You care to notice ), You surely appear to have an in depth knowledge of nautical issues as well as freudian theories . .
Likewise have observed your unique social skills and reflexes, which group/ally to join and/pr choose. You are truly very inteligent and smart interlocutor , I am proud to be acquainted with.
The second screenshot shows You what difficulties one encounters on this privately moderated/owned forum, when one is tackling/facing singlehandedly a group of interlocutors having different opinion.
" PISSED ?? " - oh come on. Aroused curiosity would be a better term my Dear Chief Engineer.
Would be great, nice & FAIR ,You would apply same scrutiny in analysing His Majesty stiff upper lipped blokes stories .
I am sure following press /media You surely will find some expert opinions and “facts” but it looks MSC M. VII is still doing fine alongside. It seems to me some used the " maritime lien" trick and no wonder courts got involved.
As to my position/opinion ,despite the overwhelming majority dissenting, i consider it more exciting and challenging refusing to join the crowd of adulators , keeping in mind that " only dead fish, floatsome and jetsome goes with the current" .
The " SHIT " reference I will skip as it seems to be reserved for His Majesty subjects and part of their diplomatic parlance.
Trust Moderators will not close now ( it would be UNFAIR) as I am sure it will be an intersting conversation.
Cheers .
I feel like the Flex with a tight fuel system can start on mouse farts. And you’ll know after blowing it over if it’s tight.
Mouse farts! Love this! Interesting on the Sulzer/Wartsila (and now Chinese owned company) the philosophy of engine design evolution. If I understand correctly it’s a common rail engine with one big mother of a pump to develop and maintain constant fuel pressure (may be close to 2000 bar). In port electric pumps and engine driven after a certain speed. On the other hand B&W maintains individual pumps operated by hydraulics for the fuel injection.
I find the philosophy of the engine design development between the 2 remaining engine makers - B&W and Sulzer so different. Danish and Swiss. They do not copy from each other - leave that to the far east countries and companies. One of these days, we should start a thread on the thought process and ideas/execution on these engines. These large engines are really a marvel in engineering and I think in my lifetime they both may be become ‘extinct’ if that is the correct word.
Spo
Stiff upper lip = Okay
Loose lips = Not Okay
Protruding lower lip with stiff upper lip = Definitely not Okay.
Seriously, I think if you were Master on the vessel and realized the speed was abt 15 kts, throttle was stuck and you had all these turns to execute, maybe you would have done the same thing. Ride along and use the e-stop only if you cannot avoid an impending disaster.
PS: Contrarian views are healthy … keeps the discussion lively.
PPS: Please post a funny joke or sea story on Capt KC thread.
I will revert but U know -weekend time =social obligations mixed with social lubricant do not allow me to focus properly…
But U could help Untill now I can not find any local rules abt the allowable speed in the river . I found them in case of Dali and it was 6 kts for all craft - surprisingly nobody was willing to explore this venue further.
Also there was the speed issue of Ever Forward and I believe Dr.Sal presented once a nice recap/video clip showing previous AIS movements of other vessels of similar size in/out in order to demonstrate that there was nothing unussual abt Ever Forward speed in comparison with other ships.
But i am not going to pay for this feature in Marine traffic to figure out the river transit speeds of other vessels of similar size and draft.
Meantime “mouse farts” made my day today and I am still rolling with laughter.
Seriously if I joined the vessel in Charlston I could end up like a helpless spectator praying and having faith in pilot skills and experience. We still do not know what they did on the bridge before passing first bridge.
There is an iteresting and very important video above posted bu C.K,. showing pax vessel leaving Everglades. Surely this vessel is not making more then 10 kts so my question is what the pilot,master and OOW were doing on MSC M VII that they missed the first harbinger of Bernoulli beast manifesting it’s presence.
Surely the bridge of MSC M.VII was not windowless otherwise their lucky outcome of ending up at sea buoy without scratching the ship would be even more surprising. There are so many issues and variables here in need of discovery hence I am reluctant to make judgements .
As You may have noticed I have not made judgements here and i have just declared what I would do what leaves others with speculations only as to the outcome of such action . I repeat -You can only speculate !!! and pull up the most horrible scenarios while speculating in order to support partly known outcome.
How much time did they have for serios risk assesment ?? have their voyage plan contained such contingency ??? I think not .
They " flipped a coin" -we either make it or brake it and they made it. Good for them but i heard and read abt others who cried “lets roll” and they did not make it. You want to celebrate that Johny or Sam hit a jackpot - be my guest but I am not joining this particular party.
One more thing .Long time ago there was a discussion here regarding Pilot responsibilities I attched pdf with so called american perspective and philosophy which is different then continental . If You find it pls read as it is interesting .
Cheers.
addendum:
QUOTE:
He did retire shortly after that incident and the gene pool for ships masters was greatly enhanced.
END QUOTE
And ohhhhhhh by Jove !!! I am honestly not surpised that blokes so attached to the theory/science of " EUGENICS" are tolerated here.
I suspected it but my patience was rewarded as I finally got it in writting.
Spo
I will concede that not every pilot in the world is brilliant, or even competent.
It really depends where you are in the world.
Can we please agree on that one.
Can you agree that most north European pilots do at least try to show some form of competence.
Mr Marine engineer
In the early 2000’s when I first got my unrestricted pilots license the FLEX engine was fairly new.
It did have a reputation for missed starts and we did need to treat the vessels so equipped with a bit of respect.
From my own experience I did see quite a few missed starts