Folks: I am an unlimted master with over 30 years experiance. Recently I was arrested for aggravted assualt when protecting my family. Without great detail, the case is being treated as a pretrial diversion. ( do community service and the DA drops the charges). This due to the fact that I have never been in trouble in the least, and the case is not strong against me so says my atty. ( but he still says take the PTI agreement and be done with it).
My question is: When I renew in a few years from now I know I will have to make note of the arrest on the renewal application. I have called the USCG and they tell me that an arrest is seen as a conviction, and that the file will have to go up for review. Ok, I can understand this for the most part:
But:
If, the case is dropped as per the pretrial agreement, and no charges are filed by the DA is there still a chance that the lic renewal would be rejected? I cannot see how the USCG can see the arrest as an “conviction”, when in the end it was not. I am also filing for an expungement so that all records will be sealed. However, the arrest record will be there for anyone that has a need to know.
I’m thinking seriously of employing an admiratly atty when the time comes.
Anyone have any knowledge of how the USCG sees such cases where no conviction is made?? I’ve heard in the past others say as long as you are honest with the application almost anything is ok as long as you are not a felon, and even then of the debt to society is paid. ( in this state (La) the aggravated arrest are not felonies charges).
Sure would hate to lose my lic after having it for years… Thanks… Tex
All I can offer is anecdotal evidence. I have a friend who has multiple felonies and was able to get a license. I think he fell under the “has paid his debt…” that you mentioned. I also worked with a guy who had shot someone. As I recall he had been arrested but got off on self defense. I can’t imagine you would have too much trouble here. Especially if I’m reading right that you are a few years from needing to renew. Good luck.
I have called the USCG and they tell me that an arrest is seen as a conviction, and that the file will have to go up for review.
This is not EXACTLY accurate, check 46 CFR 12.01-6. You are looking specifically for the definition of “Conviction”. What they may be referring to is the later part of the definition, specifically, “If an applicant pleads guilty or no contest, is granted deferred adjudication, or is required by the court to attend classes, make contributions of time or money, receive treatment, submit to any manner of probation or supervision, or forgo appeal of a trial court’s conviction, then the Coast Guard will consider the applicant to have received a conviction.”
It may cost you less in the long run to fight this now. If your attorney doesn’t agree, check with other attorneys. Your livelihood could be in jeopardy, because assault (aggravated) falls into a 5 to 10 year assessment period and could very well make your renewal difficult, if not impossible.
46 CFR 12.02-4 indicates the guidelines that the USCG would use to evaluate your renewal and the additional information you would need to submit with your application for consideration.
You might want to talk to some of the licensing consultants. One who has a good reputation is Chuck Kakusha, whom I have used to try to understand some of the convoluted USCG requirements. It would be a very cost effective compared to a lawyer.
http://www.seakslicensing.com/
There are others, too.
Good luck!
[quote=capt-tex;28703]Folks: I am an unlimted master with over 30 years experiance. Recently I was arrested for aggravted assualt when protecting my family. Without great detail, the case is being treated as a pretrial diversion. ( do community service and the DA drops the charges). This due to the fact that I have never been in trouble in the least, and the case is not strong against me so says my atty. ( but he still says take the PTI agreement and be done with it).
My question is: When I renew in a few years from now I know I will have to make note of the arrest on the renewal application. I have called the USCG and they tell me that an arrest is seen as a conviction, and that the file will have to go up for review. Ok, I can understand this for the most part:
But:
If, the case is dropped as per the pretrial agreement, and no charges are filed by the DA is there still a chance that the lic renewal would be rejected? I cannot see how the USCG can see the arrest as an “conviction”, when in the end it was not. I am also filing for an expungement so that all records will be sealed. However, the arrest record will be there for anyone that has a need to know.
I’m thinking seriously of employing an admiratly atty when the time comes.
Anyone have any knowledge of how the USCG sees such cases where no conviction is made?? I’ve heard in the past others say as long as you are honest with the application almost anything is ok as long as you are not a felon, and even then of the debt to society is paid. ( in this state (La) the aggravated arrest are not felonies charges).
Sure would hate to lose my lic after having it for years… Thanks… Tex[/quote]
First, a couple of comments - it’s not true that it won’t matter unless it’s a felony. The list of potentially disqualifying offenses and the range of suggested waiting periods is in 46 CFR
Also, the definition of conviction for these purposes is very broad. It includes such things as continued without a finding, no lo contendre, probation, etc. I’ve seen a fair number of cases where the mariner’s attorney did a very poor job of advising their client of the implications of a settlement agreement on their livelihood.
In your case, the specific impact will depend on the details of the intervention program. In short, if it’s a court ordered program, it might be viwed by the NMC as a conviction. If the program is used by prosecutors to assist them in exercising their discretion whether or not to pursue a case, it may be determined that it is not a conviction for licensing purposes.
The above notwithstanding, the true nature of the program is complex, requires a fair amount of investigation (by legal advisors in CG HQ) and is not within the normal expertise of the NMC. The determination that the program is not to be treated as a conviciton may not be made until the matter gets to CG HQ on appeal.
Dear Capt-Tex-
Though I do not handle these matters, I do have a friend in Houston who could possibly help. My cell is 713-569-7144. Call 24/7.
Steve
I am surprised no one has made the connection here that you have brought up!
The application has the check box “Have you ever been convicted by any court – including military court – for an offense other than a minor traffic violation.” The old form asked if you had ever been convicted of a felony.
You should find out specifically what charge you were convicted of. If you were arrested on one charge, and convicted of another, then the conviction is what you were asked about, and will be taken to task for. Note the USCG form does not ask if you have ever been arrested, but convicted. Also you refer to waiting for five years: There is no way your conviction will be ‘forgotten’ in five years (thanks to computers) If you omit it, and submit it without admitting they can both deny and refuse to renew your license for submitting a false application.
It sounds to me like you need a better lawyer (more well versed in the maritime aspect) to advise you.
all this being said, are you shipping on your license or is it just wall art? if the later, well ask yourself if its worth it.
“I was arrested for aggravted (sic) assualt when protecting my family” there’s a lot missing here; as a cynic I could bend this any way I want to fill many scenarios, most not making you look like a calm thoughtful person in a tense situation (ie master of a ship).
good luck on whatever decision you make, but ask yourself it it’s worth it.
[Gets on soapbox]Too bad they stopped issuing wall art certificates and started issuing these cheap booklets. :mad: Would be nice to at least have the OPTION of ordering a paper license to hang. [Leaves soapbox]
I agree Jon, the option would be nice…
I believe it was Jeffrox who found a site where you can order a license, for wall art…It’s somewhere on one of these threads, maybe he’ll repost it…
[quote=Shellback;29100]I agree Jon, the option would be nice…
I believe it was Jeffrox who found a site where you can order a license, for wall art…It’s somewhere on one of these threads, maybe he’ll repost it…[/quote]
Not me, someone else. I did share the fact that anyone can make a suitable-for-framing license by scanning an old one and changing the name/wording using the Paintbrush or other program.
[QUOTE=Jeffrox;29110]Not me, someone else. I did share the fact that anyone can make a suitable-for-framing license by scanning an old one and changing the name/wording using the Paintbrush or other program.[/QUOTE]
Right Jeff, I remember that now…I found it…Should we refer to you as Spock or number 1???
Jeffrox
Top Contributer
I just tried this: I used a scanned copy of an old license, imported it into Paintbrush Program, then changed the info on it. I am now a Chief Mate of Star Fleet Vessels, Unlimitless, with license number 8675309. Those that want a “suitable for framing license” can do the same. Borrowing the license copy from someone if all you have is the MMC. If I could do it using that lame Paitbrush progam with my low graphics skill, anyone can do it. I don’t think one could make a business out of this as it’s too easy to do at home.
So let me see if I get this straight. You can renew your license (for what, 5 or 10 years?), then have a little contretemps with the law and the USCG says “don’t worry, keep on sailing as if nothing has happened”. A few years later when it is time to renew the license, they then get all over you and want to punish you or some other such absurdity?
You act like it is supposed to make sense.
As for the charge…court decision must be ‘nol processed’ or “take under advisement” pending some completion(ie time, anger management class). Otherwise you are “guilty” and therefore “convicted.” DO NOT PLEA BARGAIN TO A LESSER CHARGE. Also, in Virginia, you can actually ‘pay off’ the plaintiff in an Assault case. You should also get Assault Charges on the plaitiff in your case, to improve your attoreys bargaining power. Tell them magistrate “he/she STRUCK me…” And the long shot is, if all parties plead the 5th,then the State has no choice but to dismiss the charge. DONT ASK HOW I KNOW THESE THINGS…JUST TRUST ME!!!
[QUOTE=capt-tex;28703]Folks: I am an unlimted master with over 30 years experiance. Recently I was arrested for aggravted assualt when protecting my family. Without great detail, the case is being treated as a pretrial diversion. ( do community service and the DA drops the charges). This due to the fact that I have never been in trouble in the least, and the case is not strong against me so says my atty. ( but he still says take the PTI agreement and be done with it).
My question is: When I renew in a few years from now I know I will have to make note of the arrest on the renewal application. I have called the USCG and they tell me that an arrest is seen as a conviction, and that the file will have to go up for review. Ok, I can understand this for the most part:
But:
If, the case is dropped as per the pretrial agreement, and no charges are filed by the DA is there still a chance that the lic renewal would be rejected? I cannot see how the USCG can see the arrest as an “conviction”, when in the end it was not. I am also filing for an expungement so that all records will be sealed. However, the arrest record will be there for anyone that has a need to know.
I’m thinking seriously of employing an admiratly atty when the time comes.
Anyone have any knowledge of how the USCG sees such cases where no conviction is made?? I’ve heard in the past others say as long as you are honest with the application almost anything is ok as long as you are not a felon, and even then of the debt to society is paid. ( in this state (La) the aggravated arrest are not felonies charges).
Sure would hate to lose my lic after having it for years… Thanks… Tex[/QUOTE]
One thing for sure. You cannot get in trouble by admitting to something that may not show up on a background check…particularly if it’s outside of the assessment periods. “IF” you leave something out, and they find out about it, that is worse than the conviction itself…that is considered falsifying.
Easy answer here…say “yes”, attach a statement of when, where, and how…you will never hear a thing from them.
I had the same thing regarding a DUI. Not formally convicted (and not on my record, I checked), but I did have to go through a court appointed program to keep the conviction off my record. Even though I know it’s not on my record…I still admit to it as required by the USCG’s definition.
[QUOTE=Shellback;29113]Right Jeff, I remember that now…I found it…Should we refer to you as Spock or number 1???
Jeffrox
Top Contributer
I just tried this: I used a scanned copy of an old license, imported it into Paintbrush Program, then changed the info on it. I am now a Chief Mate of Star Fleet Vessels, Unlimitless, with license number 8675309. Those that want a “suitable for framing license” can do the same. Borrowing the license copy from someone if all you have is the MMC. If I could do it using that lame Paitbrush progam with my low graphics skill, anyone can do it. I don’t think one could make a business out of this as it’s too easy to do at home.[/QUOTE]
Rick Springfield fan huh…there is always one in the bunch.
The way I read things here, I guess the USCG wants you to have presidential status hun?!