Yeah, since they are going to be short lived, disposable, sacrificial, one-way boats if they were ever sent into “harm’s way” why not use something cheap and save the taxpayer a few bucks.
Oh, I know why, the gold braid crowd wouldn’t get their daily ego boost from commanding a “real” warship.
[QUOTE=Steamer;186889]Yeah, since they are going to be short lived, disposable, sacrificial, one-way boats if they were ever sent into “harm’s way” why not use something cheap and save the taxpayer a few bucks.
Oh, I know why, the gold braid crowd wouldn’t get their daily ego boost from commanding a “real” warship.[/QUOTE]
From GCaptain today: https://gcaptain.com/u-s-navy-6-3-billion-for-new-oilers-and-amphibious-assault-ships/
Just a thought; how much could be saved if these contracts had gone out on an open tender, incl. to foreign yards, even if this did not include the concept design and weapons system?
By the way; Open Tender doesn’t mean that foreign yards would automatically win. It would depend on quality and price, which MAY force US yards to modernize to become competitive, not just rely on the US Gov. to support them at whatever cost to Taxpayers.
Yes I know that there are other considerations than only direct building cost, such as securing work for struggling US yards, US workers and equipment manufacturers etc. Not to mention the strategic importance of being able to build ships in the US at all.
OMG! Here we go again…
AUGUST 30, 2016 — The USS Coronado (LCS 4) is headed back to Pearl Harbor after experiencing an engineering casualty when three days out from Hawaii headed for Singapore, reports the U.S. Naval Institute.
“The crew took precautionary measures and the ship is currently returning to Pearl Harbor to determine the extent of the problem and conduct repairs,” USNI News’s Sam LaGrone quotes a Navy statement as saying.
Coronado is operating under its own power with a speed restriction of 10 knots and is being escorted by USNS Henry J. Kaiser.
USNI News quotes two sources as saying that crew members saw electricity arcing around the gearing system that combines the output from the ship’s gas turbines and main propulsion diesels.
The Independence-variant Coronado’s casualty follows engineering casualties experienced by the Freedom-variant Littoral Combat Ships USS Freedom’s (LCS-1) and USS Fort Worth (LCS-3) (see earlier story).
USNI quotes the Navy as saying that this latest casualty “appears to be unrelated to recent propulsion problems on Freedom and Fort Worth.”
WHAT THE FUCK ISN’T WRONG WITH THESE PIECES OF SHIT?
Can you imagine what new maritime program (with jobs) could be funded with the $375M each of these floating piles of garbage? This pathetic clown has got to be killed!
The LCS program will go down as the greatest boondoggle in the history of the US Navy and it is a damn shame to see it happen. Cancel these trashballs before the damage gets truly catastrophic.
[QUOTE=c.captain;189707]OMG! Here we go again…
WHAT THE FUCK ISN’T WRONG WITH THESE PIECES OF SHIT?
Can you imagine what new maritime program (with jobs) could be funded with the $375M each of these floating piles of garbage? This pathetic clown has got to be killed![/QUOTE]
Maybe they can be used as escorts for a certain aircraft carrier with a catapult that can’t launch any planes.
[QUOTE=c.captain;189707]WHAT THE FUCK ISN’T WRONG WITH THESE PIECES OF SHIT?
[/QUOTE]
USNI News quotes two sources as saying that crew members saw electricity arcing around the gearing system that combines the output from the ship’s gas turbines and main propulsion diesels.
Could be a shaft wasn’t grounded properly. Reckon?
[QUOTE=c.captain;189707]
WHAT THE FUCK ISN’T WRONG WITH THESE PIECES OF SHIT?[/QUOTE]
Hey sailor, that’s no way to talk about the highly decorated and patriotic admirals who will soon be working for General Dynamics!
[QUOTE=Lee Shore;189709]Maybe they can be used as escorts for a certain aircraft carrier with a catapult that can’t launch any planes.[/QUOTE]
Now now, it can launch the planes just fine. Not fast enough for them to fly per se, but clearly that’s more of a aircraft design issue.
[QUOTE=Emrobu;189712]Could be a shaft wasn’t grounded properly. Reckon?[/QUOTE]
Nah, it was grounded very well, that was the only way they could weld the cracks while underway.
Why do I have this image of sailors looking through a viewport into the gearbox and seeing a light show of dancing blue lightning flashes circling around the gears. I wonder what they could see through the lube oil spray?
Or, they see the outside of the gear lighting up like a giant plasma globe.
More likely they saw a guy dressed in a leather jacket and gloves wearing a funny looking hat making big sparks and lots of smoke where they found a crack earlier in the day.
No fear though, some admiral will get a medal and a promotion and some General Dynamics guy will get a big bonus for negotiating a fat repair contract.
What can the men and women who man these ships expect when these ships go in harms way? These very expensive ships are obviously under tested and not fit to travel outside of our own EEZ. And how 'bout those National Security cutters? Haven’t heard much negative on them. What say you, politicians in our Armed Services Committee?
[QUOTE=Steamer;189717]More likely they saw a guy dressed in a leather jacket and gloves wearing a funny looking hat making big sparks and lots of smoke where they found a crack earlier in the day.[/QUOTE]
Fonzi? That’s not a hat, that’s his hair. Where do I sign that hawt work permit?
[QUOTE=ombugge;177675]I’m not an Engineer but I’m fairly certain that the gear manufacturer would have specified; “Do not operate without ensuring that luboil level is within prescribed level. Use only (specification)”, or something to that effect?[/QUOTE]
Yes, that makes sense; it seems as though the system design may lack an interlock that prevents engine startup before the gearbox lube pumps are confirmed working okay. Or possibly, the engine local starter panel lacked a protective gearbox lube interlock.
Some amazingly obvious stuff gets overlooked in modern systems design these days.
Also, I see many younger engineers who are trained in narrow-minded procedures and who evident-ally don’t have a viable mental model of how the entire interface between systems should function. This is not the fault of the young engineers, though their training can make it frustrating to try and talk sense to them.
so now the bloated brass hats in the Navee believe they can train their way out of the problems of useless ships which would breakdown even if never started
[B]U.S. Navy Commander Orders Stand Down of LCS Engineering Crews Following Mishaps[/B]
September 6, 2016 by Mike Schuler
The U.S. Navy Commander for Naval Surface Forces has ordered an engineering stand down for every LCS crew to review procedures and standards following the recent engineering casualty on the littoral combat ship (LCS) USS Freedom.
“Due to the ongoing challenges with littoral combat ships, I ordered an engineering stand down for LCS Squadrons and the crews that fall under their command,” said Vice Adm. Tom Rowden, Commander of Naval Surface Forces. The stand downs have all been completed as of August 31, the Navy said in a statement late Monday.
“These stands down allowed for time to review, evaluate, and renew our commitment to ensuring our crews are fully prepared to operate these ships safely,” said Rowden.
The stand down comes after the littoral combat ship USS Freedom (LCS 1) suffered a casualty to one of the main propulsion diesel engines in July. Based on initial assessments, the engine will need to be removed and rebuilt or replaced.
Back in January, the USS Fort Worth (LCS 3) was also sidelined in Singapore after suffering damage to the ship’s combining gears. The ship is currently returning to its homeport of San Diego under its own power where it is expected to undergo an extensive repair period.
The two incidents prompted Vice Adm. Rowden to comment that “improvements in engineering oversight and training are necessary” to “help reduce chance for future operator error.”
Both ships are of the Freedom class variant, which are built by Lockheed Martin at the Marinette Marine shipyard in Wisconsin. The third Freedom-class ship, USS Milwaukee (LCS-5), also suffered an engineering mishap last December when it suffered a loss of propulsion while underway in the Atlantic Ocean off the coast of Virginia. The incident was blamed on metallic debris contamination in the port and starboard combining gear filter systems.
The Navy said this week that Vice Adm. Rowden has also directed the retraining of each LCS Sailor involved in engineering on board their ship.
“I have asked the Surface Warfare Office School (SWOS) commander to review the wholeness of our LCS engineering education and training to include the testing and retraining of all LCS engineers,” said Rowden.
“This training will occur over the next 30 days and will allow the SWOS leadership to review our training program and determine if other changes need to be made to the training pipeline” Rowden added.
The required engineering training will be conducted by the SWOS’ engineering team, who will develop both a level-of-knowledge test and specialized training that will be deployed in the next 30 days to the LCS engineering force, the Navy said. The commanding officer of SWOS is also conducting a comprehensive LCS engineering review, which will likely take 30-60 days. From there, more adjustments may be made to the engineering training pipeline, according to the Navy.
While determining the process for retraining and certifying the engineering departments, USS Coronado (LCS 4), of the Independence variant, also experienced a casualty to one its flexible couplings assemblies on Aug. 29, the Navy revealed Monday.
“As Coronado returned to Pearl Harbor Sunday afternoon, Sept. 4, Rowden sent a small group of maintenance experts to meet the ship to take a holistic look at the engineering program on board,” the Navy said. “A preliminary investigation will provide an initial assessment and procedural review of the situation, and any shortfalls will be addressed quickly to get the ship fixed and back on deployment.”
“I am fully committed to ensuring that our ships and the Sailors who man them have the proper tools and training they need to safely and effectively operate these ships,” added Rowden.
these ships are garbage and no matter how well trained your engineers or how many procedures you implement, they are still CRAP!
[QUOTE=c.captain;190001]so now the bloated brass hats in the Navee believe they can train their way out of the problems of useless ships which would breakdown even if never started.
These ships are garbage and no matter how well trained your engineers or how many procedures you implement, they are still CRAP![/QUOTE]
The logical solution is to put them up on blocks and use them for training purposes, such as Firefighting, ABC etc.
There is another type of LSCs, built to a different design, I believe. Are there any problems with those as well?
[QUOTE=ombugge;190003]There is another type of LSCs, built to a different design, I believe. Are there any problems with those as well?[/QUOTE]
The Austal-built trimaran version has had a host of issues as well. The lead (USS Independence) had gigantic corrosion issues on its hull where the aluminum met the steel below the waterline. Apparently no method of cathodic protection was installed on the ship, which led to so much wastage of the hull both waterjets were in danger of falling off the hull only a year after she went into service. Delays in retrofitting a solution to this issue to the subsequent ships have pushed the whole project timeline back nearly a year.
The 2nd ship of the class (Coronado) just had an breakdown in the Pacific reported here to be a “casualty to one of its flexible coupling assemblies” which required the ship to return to Pearl Harbor at 5 knots and under escort.
The third ship (Jackson) is fitted with the full anti-corrosion suite and is now in Guantanamo heading for San Diego after passing shock tests.
Doesn’t sound like these are luck ships. New designs can be expected to have problems, but there isn’t much that is revolutionary new and untried with these ships.
A little unusual hull form for both types, but not entirely unknown. Water jets and/or four engines connected to twin screws are not new, but combining Diesel and Gas Turbines on one drive may be a first(?)
sorry but been around for 50+ years now
Combined diesel or gas (CODOG) is a type of propulsion system for ships that need a maximum speed that is considerably faster than their cruise speed, particularly warships like modern frigates or corvettes.
For every propeller shaft there is one diesel engine for cruising speed and one geared gas turbine for high speed dashes. Both are connected to the shaft with clutches, only one system is driving the ship in contrast to CODAG-systems, which can use the combined power output of both. The advantage of CODOG is a simpler gearing compared to CODAG but it needs either more powerful or additional gas turbines to achieve the same maximum power output. The disadvantage of CODOG is that the fuel consumption at high speed is poor compared to CODAG.
of course I am thinking that this is a first for the great and glorious US Navee so perhaps in their incredibleness they failed to note that this has been done on many ships successfully now for 5 decades and decided to build these SHIT PILES without reviewing any other designs including those even from other US government vessels. Even the USCG uses CODOG propulsion and has since the 1960’s
oops…correction. The Navee had the ASHVILLE class gunboats in the 60’s which were CODOG as well
but that was a Navy that knew what a warship was and not a floating weapons deployment platform.
[QUOTE=c.captain;190001]so now the bloated brass hats in the Navee believe they can train their way out of the problems of useless ships which would breakdown even if never started
these ships are garbage and no matter how well trained your engineers or how many procedures you implement, they are still CRAP![/QUOTE]
Of course when “trained navy engineers” put a Damage control plug in the jacket water pump weep hole to stop the leak, bad things can happen. Especially when the jacket water and lube oil pump run off the same engine driven shaft. I was told the Freedom also has no fuel purifiers. Only fuel treatment on board is a coalescer and the engine mounted filters. Sounds like piss poor design being operated by people who have no operations experience.
[QUOTE=highseasmechanic;190046] Sounds like piss poor design…[/QUOTE]
Honestly this is probably the most baffling part. How can you spend a bajillionty-seven dollars working on designing an aluminum ship, with an aluminum shipbuilder, and not take into account or even seem to be aware that the vessel will need cathodic protection? How can you design a propulsion train which has been used before with some success, and neglect (what I would assume) are obvious systems like fuel purification and oil separation? And why is the learning curve so insurmountably steep on the Freedom Class?
All rhetorical questions I suppose, since at this point it’s painfully clear these “ships” have done little but line pockets of defense contractors. It’s a shame the Navy is actually playing along so dutifully and is willing to put lives at stake on these deathtraps.
^^^ Sounds like the Naval Sea Systems command who design our naval warships needs a thorough overhaul of its own. I want to hear why the LCS didn’t warrant a fuel purification system. Heads need to roll on this BS.