That’s nice, but if an RFPNW is not allowed to overshoot by more than 5º, I would hold a cadet to the same standard.
Why not just put an IRS lien on them for the cost of their KP education?
Do maritime colleges not have real boat handling courses anymore?
A lifetime ago at CMA they had a boat handling course. You maneuvered 65’ long ex-Army transportation boats built by the Navy for the Korean War. Single screw. Very heavy for their size. Slow to respond to engine commands. Handling characteristics mimicked much larger vessels
Went out in the Sacramento River. Docked on the abutments under the Carquinez Bridge in strong currents Screw up? Instructor screamed at you. Hit hard enough to ring the boat’s bell? The instructor would cackle hysterically. Then back to the boat basin, and back-and-fill to make the entry, without grinding a host of small craft to fiberglass splinters.
It was by far the best course I had in four years of school, because it actually taught you something about real seamanship. It put you under stress, always a good thing for training officers.
You mean they don’t do this anymore at maritime colleges?
Yea I wouldn’t lean on a sports scholarship for a full ride at SUNY. Our team is lucky they get the amount of funding they get. This may be an old, discontinued program because I can’t find info on it currently, but if you were a good HS student, with strong extracurriculars and all that you qualified. https://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/20/nyregion/state-to-offer-suny-maritime-scholarships.html
I, of course, did not qualify for this, but I received many need-based and merit-based scholarships while I attended. Took reasonable loans, and paid them of without too much trouble. Doing ROTC and SSO(Formerly MMR) would give a cadet basically the same full coverage as someone at KP, and incur almost the same service obligation.
At Mass you have two semesters on the 95ish foot TV Ranger, you have at least 2 semesters on the motor whale boats, and then if you take the Towing Endorsement class you have two semesters on the mini tugs. On top of this you have the 360 degree simulator your entire senior year, 3 sea terms, and the commercial cruise.
It’s no Sea Year on that MSC Oiler where you have an AB on the helm or that ATB on the autopilot the whole year but it’s plenty of opportunity.
It might have to do with the directional stability and a moderately low GM. We are normally trimmed flat. We don’t wait for the ship to approach the new course to reduce but instead reduce as soon as the desired ROT is reached.
Ten degrees rudder for a 45 degree course change would typically be too much. Put on 10 degrees to get it started then reduce to 5 or midships.
That’s an excellent program.
Not during my tenure at Schyuler (15 years ago). I wish I got to do some of that stuff you described.
Sea year is the answer I gave, I now know and have known you are just as hardheaded as me. Was not a “Recruiting” answer regarding curriculum, a brief description was explained. Very brief. It does bother some people, not me. Vicarious you say? I played football, wrestled, sailed for thirty years and am very fucking proud my son did better than me. I am in a good position to mentor him to be a successful mariner. Now the one that’s gonna piss off the domers and Beer dude, is he had a medical condition that threatened his career. Could not sail for a bit after a rewarding career, in the meantime, he had an operation that remedied his malady we hope. He was working shoreside in a management position, and after a struggle, got his license renewed. He has a future in a fast growing port due to the skills acquired during sailing and the degree in logistics. Any academy is worth the attempt, no matter what you sail on. Again, I answered the OP’s question.
Yes, vicarious. You did not go to KP or any academy, therefore you vicariously experienced the Academy through him.
When did I or anyone here say anything remotely insulting about you son? Sorry hear about his condition, glad to hear here’s found an alternative. I’m not knocking your son in any way, I’m sure he’s a good person just as I’m sure you are. My point is that you somehow manage to comment on every thread without actually offering any real answer beyond something only vaguely relevant to the conversation.
I didn’t attend Texas A&M but often sailed by the campus. I’m assuming the small boats in the basin next to the training ship are for training the cadets in boat handling.
I respectfully disagree on some of your points. That I didn’t attend an academy makes no difference. We all were in similar business. I knew what he was getting into, and advised him as best I could. That KP didn’t have quite the program on boat handling as your school, had a problem with that. More focus was on the sailboats than motorized vessels. Not that they didn’t have a program, I thought it needed a bit more focus. For what it’s worth, I got in a shit storm early on with the admin and alumni as to why they didn’t expand on it. More of the schools should do that, I have rarely had a cadet from any school that could get a light tug to the dock.
I don’t think that would be of benefit to the nation.
I realize that there’s a lot of push around here for shutting down KP. I used to be of that mindset myself. There’s a lot of influence pushing to keep it open which makes it unlikely to be shuttered. So, since it’s going to be kept around, why not figure out how to get the most bang for the buck?
Every other service academy has an active duty requirement. USCG Academy, USAF Academy, West Point, Annapolis… all require active duty upon graduation. As a taxpayer, I look at USMMA and wonder why they don’t have an active duty obligation. As a taxpayer and mariner, I look at MSC’s crewing woes. Put the two of them together and I come up with a potential solution that would improve MSC’s crewing and retention rate while also getting the most bang for the buck regarding the tax dollars spent training USMMA grads. Switch MSC to an equal time rotation. This nearly doubles the amount of bodies that you have to call on in a sealift surge, and nearly doubles the people that are familiar with the vessels. Make USMMA grads work on MSC ships for 5 years upon graduation or go active duty in another branch.
What post are you referencing where I said my schools was better than KP’s? I don’t know what KP’s ship handling instruction entails because sea year isn’t instruction, it’s an internship where there are no instructors, just the vessels crew who have no responsibility in the cadet learning anything. That’s on the Cadet.
You not going to an academy makes a difference when you speak about life at an academy and how the curriculum works, you didn’t experience it first hand. So yes, it very much matters.
I’m not even speaking about your son so why you keep bringing it up like I’m attacking him or why he is even a part of this conversation is very confusing to me. It’s great you advised him, KP is a great choice from an economic standpoint. Kudos on being a good dad.
It almost proves my original point I was trying to make.
Good question. Perhaps they should be the same, We may need to look at chnaging one or the other.
So to summarize this thread:
Shiphandling training provided to cadet by KP: none
Shiphandling training provided to cadet by SMAs: some
Shiphandling training provided to cadet by Industry: unlikely
Even as a cadet who eventually went Engine I still helmed the training ship down the Atlantic coast on freshman sea term.
Yes, but being at the helm does not give you any practical instruction as to the art of ship handling. All you’re doing is driving a straight line, or following somebody else’s helm commands.
I think that’s the point we’re all trying to make in different ways. You don’t really learn shiphandling until you are very much out on your own, and hopefully you work under a great shiphandler that can teach you.
Since many of them don’t do either and there appears to be zero enforcement of the requirement, there isn’t much more of an incentive than having a huge debt hanging over them. Not good for the credit rating or security clearance.
As far as making them go active duty military, that is what a real service academy is for. Why the hell should the “merchant marine academy” spit out baby aviators or ground pounders, or even navy sailors for that matter?
I think this is true to an extent. Yes, most of your ship handling is learned after graduation, and under the instruction of (hopefully) an experienced master.
I will also say that shiphandling courses taken your senior year at Mass Maritime provided a great basis for continuing to learn after graduation. I think it’s provided a great foundation to continue on with.
Same old shit from you Steamer. Totally agree with New3M. Most , if not all cadets go on our steadily decreasing Jones Act fleets,or MSC stuff. Some get lucky and get with a captain that gives them stick time. I am still in the hunt for the book a poster is looking for.