To me the whole divide thing is basically instilled in the whole traditional makeup of deck officers and engineering officers. At the officer level everyone should be cross trained. In reality there should be ships officers , not deck officers , nor engineering officers, just vessel officers . A mate should know how to do everything an AE knows how to do and vice a versa. Higher level skills, Higher level position on vessel. Then we should roll that into the company business side. A person in the office calling shots on policy or funding should have as much or more skills in vessel operation then a high level officer on the vessel.
To quote Oddball in Kelly’s Heroes, “I just drive em man… I dunno what makes em go.”
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Lotta wisdom from Oddball. https://youtu.be/54oqYyy_r_Q
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It was tried by the Germans and the French. A friend and shipmate went through the German system after training at Flensburg. He sailed briefly in junior ranks as a deck officer and sailed with me as a very competent chief engineer.
There was no way he wished to sail at a higher rank in the deck department. It is generally recognized that there is a different degree of responsibility between the mate and the AE and the trouble seemed to be that none of the cross trained officers wanted to sail as mate.
Maybe the job as mate was the cross we had to bear before we got our slippers under the table.
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‘Combined Tickets’.
Apparently had to have 2 phones in your cabin; you got to decide which one took priority when the shit hit the fan.
But to get people to do that you have to stick them in a long skinny tube and sink it. 
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I’ve always found that all the Engineers I’ve worked with had no desire to work in the wheelhouse. Being hot, dirty, and actively fixing things is what made them happy(maybe not happy, less jaded). And, they knew it deep down. The little bit of wheelhouse work I’ve done I’ve found exceedingly boring and didn’t seem rewarding to me personally.
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That is exactly why when I left the navy I chose tankers. It was a long fat tube that didn’t sink and it was simplicity itself. Once immersed in the Merchant Navy ethos I moved on.
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Subs huh? Clearly you’re not an engineer. I would suspect you’re not Deep Sea either. 20+ years Retired Military?
I’ve sailed a long time. I have met some very impressive people, Deck and Engine alike. I’ve known people who started in deck and defected to engine or vis versa. I’ve sailed with a couple of dualies. No one. Wants to know everything the other does.
The question should be what takes more time/commitment to become knowledgable? Should a 3AE who has been sailing two years be as effective as a 3M with the same time? Is one position easier or harder to become proficient? 2AE-2M? 1AE- CM?
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Actually yes an engineer. Sub Nuclear MM 1980-86. Worked small power plants 33MW for a bit. Worked Gov contracts MSC and NOAA as CE on diesel electric vessels. Went around the world a few times with those groups. Worked Alaska ferries last of career. Total time as a CE on mostly low end contracts about 22 years. Sailing on low end contracts as CE really sucked personnel wise. There is no one waiting in the wings to take the job of the sub par crew member. Completely different on good deep sea contracts. You can “can” a guy and have someone to replace them at next port. My Total sailing career a good 30 plus. The most proficient crews I have worked with were very knowledgeable of the vessel they were working on. A good crew is a cross trained crew. I have found the most proficient mates at ship handling are not deep sea guys. They just plain don’t get the ship handling experience in restricted waters or in docking. The best mates I worked with were cross trained and allowed AE’s that were interested to be cross trained in Deckie stuff.
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@Cheng anybody who has his dolphins (qualified in submarines) has cross-training in his bones.
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Nice! LOL, but it is true.
Subs, MSC, NOAA, Ferries. All important industries/sectors for sure. Every MSC engineer I’ve had come on my ships as their first Deep Sea vessel were not ship engineers. NOAA? I don’t think they have a single USCG Licensed Unlimited CE in their entire fleet.
Yeah I get it. I have plenty of experience with Bubbleheads. I was on the USS
Proteus in Guam the same time he was in. The thing is? I surrendered the thinking when the ships I went to work on had 20 people and not 680.
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Curious what you mean by that?
I started my career with MSC and the skills I learned in that job, from troubleshooting, to full engine teardown overhauls, to shipyards, and everything else involved in taking ships around the world, put me leagues ahead of many of my colleagues at a much faster pace when I moved on from there. Perhaps you get out what you put in.
As to the proverbial divide, cross training is great, but…
…is a far cry from cross training. The old saying of a jack of all trades is a master of none rings true for a reason. You stay great at what you stay doing.
Learning about what is important to a Mates daily job helped me understand what to prioritize. Teaching the Mates what is important to do to not destroy an engine made my life easier. And having a Mate who continued their own education learning the intricacies of automation systems helps everyone by recognizing early when something isn’t right.
But expecting someone who lives and breathes navigation and ship handling to also be an expert at rotating out a main bearing is just an exercise in wasteful use of time.
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The Navy also divides the work by type, just not the same division as the merchant side. In the Navy the hands on, know-how resides with the enlisted while the officers handle oversight and the admin. They say “the chiefs run the Navy”, there’s no equivalent expression on the merchant side.
On the merchant side the ship’s officers are more hands on than officers in the military. This is especially true on the engineering side.
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I sail with a who that tended to a reactor on a sub. I did not get the idea everyone on the sub knew how to do that, it was a fairly specialized job with some bad outcomes possible.
- I guess if you are already underwater every job can go bad pretty quick!