How many unlimited boats out there?

[QUOTE=Fraqrat;61863]Semantics, but the time still counts. I know people that got their chief mate/1st A/E time on them to get their Master/ChEng unlimited. I still don’t understand the mentality of why a limited license guy working his way up. They still have to stand the watches and the time at sea. You know how many unlimited masters come down to GOM and can’t even drive a boat. It’s ridiculous and having to take a chief unlimited and spoon feed them. Don’t get me wrong not all are like that and in hindsight I wished I went to an academy. If its such a pisser why are all the big time deep sea people coming down here to work.[/QUOTE]

First, is that serving as 2nd captain on a large OSV is not equal to sailing as a chief mate on a ship that requires an unlimited chief mate and as far as I know, you still need six months as an unlimited chief mate to qualify to be an unlimited master. Anything else is gaming the rules.

Second, I am sick to death of the argument made by OSV people that an unlimited tonnage master can’t be a capable ship handler. Utter nonsense on its face and I would say in retort that an OSV licensed mariner can’t be capable to be master of a containership or a tanker.

Vessels the size of very large OSVs (ie >6000grt) are SHIPS and should be manned and operated as SHIPS!

The vessels are manned and operated as ships. The second captain is an industry only term to massage the guys ego. He is the highest ranked deck officer under the Master and therefore the chief mate. How many ships have a chief mate who is a licensed master? I know from personal experience many ships I sailed on all the deck officers were either masters or chief mates. So what if it doesn’t say chief mate 1600 itc it says master 1600 itc or whatever tonnage the boat is. If the vessel has the tonnage the time counts loop hole gaming the system whatever you wanna call it. Most people driving cars shouldn’t have a license yet they somehow slip through the cracks.

In my twenty years 15 of it here on the mud boats I have yet to see an U/L Master come right on and be able to drive. I have seen a few make a trip around Fourchon once and hit everything twice. I’ve seen more than a few not even speak to an AB and pass orders through the mate. I will say the younger generation of academy guys are getting better simulator training and it isn’t quite as confusing for them. Usually though they come in with the attitude my license is bigger and I’m the smartest guy in the room only to find out its not as easy as it seems. The hawespiper working his way up to 3rd mate and then to Master from there has a few years to absorb the intricacies of ship handling. The U/L Master going from his ship to an OSV is so friggin awesome he should just be able to walk on and own the thing. Just as handling a ship in tight quarters is a fine art so is driving an OSV. You have to handle it in tight quarters and all that but you earn your $ maneuvering around the rigs, platforms and drill ships. The DP computer is nice and all the thrusters are like training wheels. It takes a very competent Master and seaman to put a 300 foot boat 5 feet away from a stationary object side sea in gale force winds and a cross current with no DP one engine and one bow thruster. All while drinking a cup of coffee and telling you about the 10 point he killed last time home. How is that guy not qualified to get a third mate, pay his dues upgrade and be a U/L Master. How can you call your self Master of the vessel if you can’t even start the engines or operate a switchboard. The name implies that you should know every aspect of the ship and it’s systems. There shouldn’t be one thing onboard you aren’t at least familiar with. The engineer side is just as bad. I have been fortunate to work with some guys with those big fancy licenses who aren’t total D bags. I’ve also noticed the academy kids seem to be a little more open minded lately and have had some outstanding cadets over the last few years. That being said I’ve run across my share of idiots who spend more time telling me how awesome they are and can’t figure out how to parallel a generator without going dark ship. We all take the same questions on the same tests using the same reference drawings. Where is the disconnect? I’m from Alabama so I know I talk real slow you would think they could pick up what I’m putting down. Oh that’s right my little piss ant license automatically puts me on the pay no mind list. If it was so easy we would have been replaced by Professional Mariners" by now, right?

[QUOTE=Fraqrat;61872]The vessels are manned and operated as ships. [/QUOTE]

I’ll start with this simple one:

No large OSV has a safe manning certificate that says unlimited tonnage master, chief mate, 2nd mate, 3rd mate or chief engineer, 1st, 2nd and 3rd assistant engineers are to be carried

Ships on the otherhand do

I have never had the pleasure of working on a “Large OSV”… What does the safe manning say for “Registry” routes, non-domestic/long term international jobs/voyages?.. Ya know, something you need STCW endorsements for…

[QUOTE=JW-Oceans;61882]I have never had the pleasure of working on a “Large OSV”… What does the safe manning say for “Registry” routes, non-domestic/long term international jobs/voyages?.. Ya know, something you need STCW endorsements for…[/QUOTE]

You’ve touched on something quite smelly here. There is no such aminal as a large OSV is SOLAS or the STCW, yet the USCG makes no mentions of this in their safe manning on the COI and just allows these vessels to go on their merry way with the same non compliant mariners who run them in the GoM. What’s worse is that the various port states allow these same ships in!

Frqrat,
First let me say I am a total hawsepiper, and while I agree with some of what you say, by your very own words you shoot yourself and your argument in the foot.

"…You have to handle it in tight quarters and all that but you earn your $ maneuvering around the rigs, platforms and drill ships. The DP computer is nice and all the thrusters are like training wheels. It takes a very competent Master and seaman to put a 300 foot boat 5 feet away from a stationary object side sea in gale force winds and a cross current with no DP one engine and one bow thruster. All while drinking a cup of coffee and telling you about the 10 point he killed last time home. How is that guy not qualified to get a third mate, pay his dues upgrade and be a U/L Master. "

My answer is that the company he works for should fire him for breaking so many SOP’s, policies, regulations, etc. and the USCG should revoke his license for his incredible lack of judgement and competency regardless of his vessel handling skills. Him doing as described put everyone on that vessel in danger as well as the charterer’s vessel, and the enviroment that a serious spill would cause. Sound judgement is just as important as vessl handling.

I have yet to see anyone step on a boat a d be able to maneuver it perfectly. I’m sure that the first time you stepped on he boat you were not able to handle the boat in he manner that you can now. I know one thing for sure if any boat comes within five feet of my rig I’m sending them away, especially one with thruster problems working the weather side. As far as knowing everything that goes on a boat there is no need for a captain to know the ins and outs of every piece of equipment that is what engineers are for. All they need to have is a basic knowledge of what is happening. I know I picked the deck side for that exact reason.

Cajumtugster if you were on DP and have a casualty or computer error or a thousand other things and are still tethered with hoses etc then it becomes necessary to go old school and hand job it disconnect and escape

Thetruth- things happen in an emergency and rig bumps happen by being complacent and relying on technology too much you still need to have sound boat handling skills and grace under pressure

[QUOTE=Fraqrat;61900]things happen in an emergency and rig bumps happen by being complacent and relying on technology too much you still need to have sound boat handling skills and grace under pressure[/QUOTE]

so let’s see…a mariner with an unlimited tonnage background has none of these skills and grace? Hmmm?

btw, I’ve worked with that clown who brags about the 10 point buck he shot and the 80 rabbits he set on fire when he burned the field they were living in plus he brought a game cookbook to bridge to talk about how to eat everything that he killed. He’s a stupid cretinous moron who doesn’t know that the letters SMS stand for. Do you?

c.captain -JW-Oceans-

COI reads as follow

This vessel must be manned with the following licensed and unlicensed personnel
1 Master, 2 licensed mates, 2 AB’s, 1 OS, 1 ChEng, 2 Oilers.
It has the chief mate second mate etc ratings listed

Routes reads as follows oceans- vessel is multicertificated as osv, industrial vessel and freight vessel. Vessel must conform at all times to the most stringent design and equipment standards of the applicable rules and regulations including SOLAS regardless of which service the vessel is in at any given time. Yada yada yada. There is page after page of different manning levels for the different services the vessel can engage in and including wether it is near coastal or an ocean voyage. As far as STCW endorsements needed you have to have the corresponding endorsements with your license regardless of tonnage and horsepower.

And to all concerned I stand by my statement you cannot be a true master of a vessel unless you understand how it works from top to bottom. That’s what engineers are for is nonsense. How can an A type personality like most captains be at the mercy of someone else. Every good Master I have worked with had a great understanding of everything in the hole and a few would turn wrenches with you in an emergency.

Yes they have these skills just not in abundance

Oh yeah and we are grilled on our SMS, SIP, SMPEP, SOPEP systems as well as FMEA and CMID audits.

I don’t disagree with that at all you have to know what to do when the technology fails. I ways assume the equipment will fail so I will think about what I need to do. However I don’t see how having a limited license makes you anymore capable than an unlimited. I give just as much credit if not more to the captain of the super tanker whose ship can take miles to stop than to the captain of the Supply boat whose boat can stop and turn on a dime. Accidents will always happen regardless of the size or your license, like you said its how you respond is the most important if you panic it won’t matter your boat handling skills. You put a 1600 ton on a loaded tanker and you will see the same thing that happens when a unlimited captain comes to mud boat. So to expect him to be able to step up and do the same hints you do after a this time makes no sense when you would have the same issues going to his world.

Yeah but the limited guy still has stairs to climb and knowledge to gain on his way to the unlimited master about how ships handle etc the unlimited guys show up down here all cocky and by having an unlimited assume I can drive anything that floats and then turn around and have trouble driving it in open water with no auto pilot without zig zagging all over the place and the z drive thing seems to take some figuring out but then they think well this moron can do it surely it can’t be that hard you get the idea

[QUOTE=Fraqrat;61908]Routes reads as follows oceans- vessel is multicertificated as osv, industrial vessel and freight vessel. Vessel must conform at all times to the most stringent design and equipment standards of the applicable rules and regulations including SOLAS regardless of which service the vessel is in at any given time.[/QUOTE]

vis a vis…if your vessel is working in offshore it is an OSV then subchapter L applies and thus it has lower manning requirements (total number and license grade both) but as soon as it leaves the oilfield then subchapter I applies and it suddenly is a SHIP with the manning a SHIP would have! And just as suddenly you would not be certified to command her! No wonder so many OSV restricted mariners simply hate it when us unlimited mariners arrive in town on the 1200 train.

Draw pardnur!

[QUOTE=Fraqrat;61915]Yeah but the limited guy still has stairs to climb and knowledge to gain on his way to the unlimited master about how ships handle etc the unlimited guys show up down here all cocky and by having an unlimited assume I can drive anything that floats and then turn around and have trouble driving it in open water with no auto pilot without zig zagging all over the place and the z drive thing seems to take some figuring out but then they think well this moron can do it surely it can’t be that hard you get the idea[/QUOTE]

My oh my…do we have some repressed emotions here? It’s ok if you want to let it out…we understand.

No sir when I said it has the unlimited ratings there were zeros next to them no matter the route or vessel service just varying numbers of mates asst engineers qmeds and deckhands none of which were of the unlimited variety. I will admit the whole large osv thing seems to be a grey area and each evaluator has a different idea how the rules apply which having a central NMC was supposed to eliminate I expect nothing less from a government entity but i got the license and it pays the bills all the rules that apply to vesselsmover 3000 itc apply to us i guess the manning thing was a product of brown envelopes exchanging hands in smoke filled bars on the bayou as a means to an end my original observation was the cocksure attitude of the real “professional mariners” with the big fancy licenses when they come down here for work and their general disregard for well seasoned component and capable mariners because their documents indicate more tonnage or horsepower I don’t hate it when they come aboard not one of them has taken my job or made me feel inferior yet I try to help them acclimate to the industry because we need people down here and I would like to have a trustworthy relief in the future my point was don’t assume unlimited means unlimited skills and knowledge

The bottom line is a piece of paper that says unlimited master, or unlimited mate, does not make you a better mariner or ship handler. Experience makes you a better mariner and ship handler. I have an unlimited license, does that make me any better than Boudreaux the coon ass Captain that has been handling 250 ft. OSV’s for 30 years? I think not! There are “Unlimited Masters” out here that have never ever handled a ship, but talk down to limited license mariners that are far more competent mariners. Trust me I work for one! I see the kids getting out of maritime colleges, have been out two years get the title senior DPO and think they are very experienced mariners. I call bull shit! C Captain, when was the last time you put a vessel of any size to the dock in 40 knot winds on the beam?

[QUOTE=CoastalDPO;61924] I call bull shit! C Captain, when was the last time you put a vessel of any size to the dock in 40 knot winds on the beam?[/QUOTE]

2008/09 ran a DP2 dsv into and out of every dock in Fourchon including up and down that effing bayoo with 3kts of current running and literally sliding sideways into Halliburton slip

next twerp up on deck in the batter’s circle…

.