Looking at the requirements, Calc I and II aren’t even required, they’re just electives, so you can avoid them if you had to. I think all the BE students I’ve known have had to take up to Calc IV.
…and then what…hope they don’t have bolt cutters or a set of wrenches? Owners and customers probably want their cargo and systems at the next port…
[QUOTE=LI_Domer;182395]Looking at the requirements, Calc I and II aren’t even required, they’re just electives, so you can avoid them if you had to. I think all the BE students I’ve known have had to take up to Calc IV.[/QUOTE]
I know that I had to take 5 quarters of calc. . . .actually the first four were a relative breeze. . . that LAST one, not so much. . . not that I ever had to use it. . . . but it was good brain training. .
Don’t put American measures on everything. Some Owners values maintenance and efficiency over direct wage costs. By ensuring that there are sufficient qualified crew ob board to carry out all required tasks, not just the minimum required to sail the vessel from A to B, they propably have figured out that they save money.
This is especially so on Offshore vessels of different descriptions, where the tasks are not just navigation and keeping machinery operating 24/7.
Many Owners prefer to keeping their own key personnel on board when working in Australian waters, on top of a full Australian crew as mandated there. Higher Charter rate cover the extra cost for Australian crews, while the Owner pay for his additional personnel.
Please also understand that not ALL non-American seamen are working on slave rates, with no legal or social protection. There are vessels with full European crews working world wide, incl. in GOM. Besides, nearly all so-called FOCs are signatory to ILO including MLC, which protects seafarer from exploitation.
USA has not ratified the MLC, but is forced to comply to avoid action against their ships in foreign ports:
The Maritime Labour Convention, 2006 (“MLC 2006”) was adopted by the International Labor Organization (“ILO”) at the 94th Maritime Session of the International Labour Convention (“ILC”) on February 7, 2006, and will enter into force on August 20, 2013. The United States has not ratified MLC 2006; however, on February 11, 2013, the Coast Guard published a notice (“MLC Notice”) in the Federal Register announcing the availability of a draft Navigation and Vessel Inspection Circular (“NVIC”) setting forth proposed Coast Guard policies and procedures regarding the inspection of U.S. vessels for voluntary compliance with MLC 2006. http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2013-02-11/pdf/2013-02956.pdf. The primary purpose of the NVIC is to assist U.S. vessels in avoiding port State control actions in foreign ports of countries that have become party to MLC 2006 by providing for a voluntary inspection program mechanism for U.S.-flag vessels resulting in the issuance of a Statement of Voluntary Compliance, Maritime Labour Convention (“SOVC-MLC”).
Maybe it would be easier to just ratify and comply?
[QUOTE=cmakin;182401]I know that I had to take 5 quarters of calc. . . .actually the first four were a relative breeze. . . that LAST one, not so much. . . not that I ever had to use it. . . . but it was good brain training. .[/QUOTE]
I don’t think all the courses of calculus are required to be an engineer on a ship. The lower levels may be helpful in providing tools to analyze how machines works (and thus better understand them), but lets be realistic…not needed to operate and maintain machinery.
As mentioned, there are various routes in training specific for becoming a 3rd A/E. AMO and MEBA have programs that are similar to associate degrees. This is very efficient and effective. The academies offer more of a hybrid that covers all the operational and industry specific training AND a student can get a BS/BE engineering degree. And those that get a mechanical or electrical ABET accredited degree can also obtain their 3rd A/E with 6months in the engine room.
The full fledged engineering degree is going to cover stuff that likely will never be used when operating a ship, but it allows the student to later have other opportunities ashore. It also will allow one to obtain a PE without as much harassment by the states (if one desire to earn one). I would never claim that somebody holding a BS/BE in engineering would make a better Chief than one with a trade degree or a hawsepiper…it depends on the person. But I will say that few will ever gain the engineering fundamentals on their own regarding the topics one is forced to endure in engineering school. However, these topics may not be of much use in the normal day-to-day life of a marine engineer.
But the engineering training really doesn’t prep somebody to rebuild or repair machines at sea and be MacGyver. I’d argue a good “farm boy” is much better suited for that task. And our society today has become too credential-ized and I’ll be the first to admit that many of those that hold a BS/BE engineering degree aren’t worth a damn.
Edit: Oh, the other thing I want to add is that in the South and much of the USA, there is no such thing as a stationary engineering license or boiler operator license etc that they have in yankland. Many people don’t realize this when they try to jump shore side.
[QUOTE=ombugge;182404]Don’t put American measures on everything. Some Owners values maintenance and efficiency over direct wage costs.[/QUOTE]
Paying good money for proper maintenance is a good investment and saves money in the future, that had nothing to do with what I’m talking about.
[QUOTE=ombugge;182404]Many Owners prefer to keeping their own key personnel on board when working in Australian waters, on top of a full Australian crew as mandated there. Higher Charter rate cover the extra cost for Australian crews, while the Owner pay for his additional personnel.[/QUOTE]
And you think the owner is paying for this out of his pocket? It’s built into the contract in some way or another, guaranteed.
[QUOTE=ombugge;182404]Please also understand that not ALL non-American seamen are working on slave rates, with no legal or social protection… Besides, nearly all so-called FOCs are signatory to ILO including MLC, which protects seafarer from exploitation.[/QUOTE]
By our standards those rates are slave wages, and there is no enforcement of the minimum pay (according to a discussion we had on the topic here a few months ago).
Yes they are paying good money in the form of hiring qualified crew over and above what is required by MSC.
Wasn’t that what you stated was impossible to believe?
And you think the owner is paying for this out of his pocket? It’s built into the contract in some way or another, guaranteed.
I don’t think so, I know so. I have some experience with sending vessels to Australia and to receive them back.
It is a cheap way of ensuring that the vessel is properly maintained during the charter period.
By our standards those rates are slave wages, and there is no enforcement of the minimum pay (according to a discussion we had on the topic here a few months ago).
Maybe you are referring to crew on vessels under FOCs operated by shipmanagment companies on behalf of absentee Owners, many of them American finance institutions?
Do you think that applies to vessels under NOR flag with full Norwegian crews on board as well??
I was on stand by off a noble rig a while back and the gulf mark boat working the rig got nailed by lightning. Total loss of power. They were on the Lee fortunately and drifted off the ship. Another osv put a line on them until they got things going again. We also got hit shortly after but only lost our internet😭
[QUOTE=ombugge;182421]Do you think that applies to vessels under NOR flag with full Norwegian crews on board as well??[/QUOTE]
I think the Norwegian Maritime union is really powerful and the owners don’t really have much choice in the matter.
[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;182428]I think the Norwegian Maritime union is really powerful and the owners don’t really have much choice in the matter.[/QUOTE]
They can change flag, which they also do.
If they want to keep Norwegians onboard they have to pay the market rate, regardless of Union, or otherwise.
If the vessels are owned and operated by Norwegian companies you will find many Norwegian officers, especially on the more complex CSVs etc., even if flying NIS or other flags.(IOM, Gibraltar, Singapore etc.)
But not exclusively on Offshore vessels. Many Cruise ships have Norwegian Masters and officers, although owned and operated by American based companies.
Many of the large fishing vessel has Norwegians as “Fishing Masters” onboard, although he may not be the official Master.
Refr. US and Russian flag factory trawlers and long liners fishing for American Seafood in the Bearings Sea. (Before??)
Some are on vessels fishing in the Barents Sea and in the Southern Ocean today under all manners of flags. (Bolivia, St Vincent etc.)
There are a lot of Dutch, German, British, French and other NW Europeans working on vessels all over the world and receiving good wages.
They may get better conditions than what you can expect in the GOM, or on US flag vessels.
Many of them are working for American companies. Even on American flag boats or rigs. You may even meet them in the GOM.
yes. There’s no arguements Norwegians, Americans, and Mariners from certain other countries make excellent wages. Many from other countries don’t though.
Like with the government having the technology to monitor all private communications, just because we can doesn’t always mean we should. What kind of world will this be when a handful of tech savvy experts can run all the machinery. What will the idle masses do to pass the time?
A guy wrote about that already…in 1952! Player Piano (novel) - Wikipedia
Player Piano, the first novel of Kurt Vonnegut, was published in 1952. It depicts a dystopia of automation, describing the deterioration it can cause to quality of life.[1] The story takes place in a near-future society that is almost totally mechanized, eliminating the need for human laborers. This widespread mechanization creates conflict between the wealthy upper class—the engineers and managers who keep society running—and the lower class, whose skills and purpose in society have been replaced by machines. The book uses irony and sentimentality, which were to become hallmarks developed further in Vonnegut’s later works.
[QUOTE=johnny.dollar;182453]A guy wrote about that already…in 1952! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_Piano_(novel)[/QUOTE]
Sounds about right. Incidentally: SEOUL, South Korea (AP) — North Korea fired a short-range missile into the sea and tried to jam GPS navigation signals in South Korea on Friday, Seoul officials said, hours after U.S., South Korean and Japanese leaders pledged to work closer together to prevent North Korea from advancing its nuclear and missile programs.
Officials said the attempt to jam GPS signals, which began Thursday, did not cause any major disruptions of South Korean military, aviation and sea transport and telecommunication systems. However, more than 130 fishing boats reported problems with their navigation systems and some were forced to return to their ports, the Ministry of Oceans and Fisheries said.
[QUOTE=Lee Shore;182452] What will the idle masses do to pass the time?[/QUOTE]
Distribute pitchforks and monkey wrenches to those who have nothing left to lose.
[QUOTE=z-drive;182434]yes. There’s no arguements Norwegians, Americans, and Mariners from certain other countries make excellent wages. Many from other countries don’t though.[/QUOTE]
What’s your definition of an “excellent wage”?
My last ship was Pride of America.
An Indian tailor on board, on contract for 4 years from NCL’s international fleet, made $2200/month. That’s 146,100.00 in Indian Rupees. An Indian sous chef on the same ship made $3500/mo. That’s 232,400 in Indian Rupees. An Indian 3M that I met on a K-Line car carrier in JAX said he made 5000/month. That's 332,000.00 in Indian Rupees. Those are not small sums in India, especially when you consider that although they earn what seems like small sums in US, they spend in their local currencies and their incomes are tax free if they sail 240days/yr. India also does not tax their Provident Funds (Their version of social security) after 5 years of continuous contribution. Even our social security income is taxed.
The same goes for the Filipinos. I had an American AB who works on an US flagged vessel, but lives in the Philippines (and no, he was not a Filipino, but a white American) and his rent for a 3 bedroom house there was US$200/month. He lets his vacation pay build up and collects it once a year, which turns into a tidy sum and owns a car wash and a laundromat there. For comparison,I pay $2600 for a 2 bedroom apt in NYC and permanently fighting for a parking space.
The point is, they all earn in US$, convert the money into their local currencies and that income is way above the national average income of their respective countries. Whereas, we earn in US$, spend in US$ and look at everything from the narrow prism of US$.
For them, after currency conversion, they’re making an excellent wage. In fact, I’d argue that, after looking at those figures and considering that, irrespective of nationalities, a sailor’s life is practically the same all over, it’s the American sailor who is not getting an “excellent wage”.
no shit. Hence why I said many do make an excellent wage. But I don’t think it should matter what the cost of living is where you live, an excellent wage in my opinion should be an excellent wage in a developed western country.
[QUOTE=z-drive;182458]no shit. Hence why I said many do make an excellent wage. But I don’t think it should matter what the cost of living is where you live, an excellent wage in my opinion should be an excellent wage in a developed western country.[/QUOTE]
Agree, but to make “good money” relative to your cost of living isn’t all bad.
In any case we were talking about seafarers from NW Europe and mainly officers, since there are few ratings on ships in world wide trade regardless of flag.
By the way, isn’t the Pride of America US flag?
What happened to American seamen on American flag ships?
Do that apply only to vessels in Jones Act trade?
Pride of America is Jones Act, I think. I might be wrong but I was under the impression that she was doing California to Hawaii cruises. As for the Jones Act itself I believe only a certain percentage of crew have to be American. 75% maybe? I don’t remember exactly.
yes, not bad. But in the global economy what’s good for someone in one country should be considered the standard for others, otherwise nothing improves.