Frigate Helge Ingstad Design - Damage Survivability

#122

Well, it would be much better to make the shaft tunnels between the aft generator room and the gear room through the aft engine room watertight. But maybe nobody cared about it? I wonder what the sister ships look like? It doesn’t look good for KNM.

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#123

“I videoene kan man for første gang se nærbilder av skadeomfanget på KNM «Helge Ingstad». I kollisjonen ble lager og lugarer akterut, akter generatorrom, aktre maskinrom, girrom og forre maskinrom truffet av ankeret på tankskipet. Alle rommene fikk vannfylling.”

Well, it seems the video only shows structural damages to the superstructure and deck house high above waterline, which are built in 6 or 4 mm plates, which have been ripped away. Ships do not float on superstructures and deck houses.
It is interesting to note that it took the shipyard one year to build the hull, superstructure and deck house. Then the ship was launched and spent another two years alongside for outfitting. Maybe they forgot to close the openings and fit stuffing boxes in the bulkheads during outfitting?

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#124

I have been involved with a number of civil engineering jobs as a contractor. In every case the client had a resident engineer on site at all time who had responsibility to check the work we did was in accordance with the contract spec. After he signed it off… it was down to him.

I would have thought a similar arrangement would be in place for building a new ship. In which case either the navy didn’t specify sealed prop tubes, or they did but didn’t check the build was in accordance withnthe spec.

By way of contrast, there was a recent program about the RN’s new flat top. Billions of pounds worth of ship bought to a vibrating halt because someone didn’t fit a seal peoperly.

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#125

Maybe survivability is no longer a navy concern. The navy knows that the ship will be destroyed by the first accurate incoming missle. The life expectancy of these fast light ships in a serious conflict is probably only a few minutes. This is why I say the Navy should build a large number of cheap basic ships, not a handful of billion dollar science fiction ships.

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#126

Not much glamour or glory in driving one of those low cost things. No self respecting wannabe admiral would ever want to have a photo op on one.

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#127

Yes. They want to put on the resume “Commanded a state of the art billion dollar ship” so they can retire young and get a high paying job managing ships or doing government contracting for TOTE or Chouest.

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#128

One might wonder why they still send these ships manned with young people Kamikaze style into a war situation with which they cannot cope. Already in 1982 a loser nation run by a dictator almost brought the British fleet near the Falkland Islands on their knees with a couple of Exocet, french for flying fish, missiles.

HMS Sheffield after being hit by an Exocet missile.

They are especially deadly for medium sized ships such as corvettes and frigates. They can be fired at 38 nm from there targets, skim the waves like a flying fish at 1 - 2 meters guided by a silent inertial navigation system and only using there homing radar when they are close to their target. Radars can detect them at about 3 nm, impact is seconds later. Visually they can be detected earlier, when over the horizon, by their smoke trail and the intense glow of the rocket motor. Who wants to join the Navy?

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#132

Never knew they had Helicopters in WWII, From the look of what is on the deck at the stern, that sure looks like a Helicopter Pad to me.

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#133

The photograph was changed and now correctly shows Sheffield.

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#134

Thanks, I was wondering.

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#135

But there were a few helos in WWII…Focke flew in '36 and Sikorsky in '39.

Heinrich Focke at Focke-Wulf was licensed to produce the Cierva C.30 autogyro in 1933. Focke designed the world’s first practical transverse twin-rotor helicopter, the Focke-Wulf Fw 61, which first flew on 26 June 1936. The Fw 61 broke all of the helicopter world records in 1937, demonstrating a flight envelope that had only previously been achieved by the autogyro.

During World War II, Nazi Germany used helicopters in small numbers for observation, transport, and medical evacuation. The Flettner Fl 282 Kolibri synchropter—using the same basic configuration as Anton Flettner’s own pioneering Fl 265—was used in the Mediterranean, while the Focke Achgelis Fa 223 Drache twin-rotor helicopter was used in Europe.[ citation needed ] Extensive bombing by the Allied forces prevented Germany from producing any helicopters in large quantities during the war.

In the United States, Russian-born engineer Igor Sikorsky and W. Lawrence LePage competed to produce the U.S. military’s first helicopter. LePage received the patentrights to develop helicopters patterned after the Fw 61, and built the XR-1.[53]Meanwhile, Sikorsky settled on a simpler, single rotor design, the VS-300, which turned out to be the first practical single lifting-rotor helicopter design. After experimenting with configurations to counteract the torque produced by the single main rotor, Sikorsky settled on a single, smaller rotor mounted on the tail boom.

Developed from the VS-300, Sikorsky’s R-4 was the first large-scale mass-produced helicopter, with a production order for 100 aircraft. The R-4 was the only Allied helicopter to serve in World War II, when it was used primarily for search and rescue (by the USAAF 1st Air Commando Group) in Burma;[54] in Alaska; and in other areas with harsh terrain. Total production reached 131 helicopters before the R-4 was replaced by other Sikorsky helicopters such as the R-5 and the R-6. In all, Sikorsky produced over 400 helicopters before the end of World War II.[55]

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#136

The salvage operation for Helge Ingstad has been delayed due to weather and other factors. The operation will now commence sometime early Jan. 2019:
https://www.nrk.no/hordaland/utsetter-hevingen-av-knm-helge-ingstad-til-neste-ar-1.14350537

Problems with passing chains under the hull has become more difficult as the wreck sinks deeper into the water.

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split this topic #137

6 posts were merged into an existing topic: Excerpt fromThe Admirals Lobby regarding vulneablity of surface ships

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#138

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=pl&sl=no&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tu.no%2Fartikler%2Fhelge-ingstad-hadde-tre-navigasjonsskjermer-pa-broen-likevel-sa-ingen-tankskipet-komme-midt-imot%2F453871&sandbox=1

( https://www.tu.no/artikler/helge-ingstad-hadde-tre-navigasjonsskjermer-pa-broen-likevel-sa-ingen-tankskipet-komme-midt-imot/453871 )

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split this topic #139

A post was merged into an existing topic: Helge Ingstad - Salvage Operation

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#140

I posted the above back in Dec. 2018.
Looking at the picture of her Stbd, side it appears the damaged section was all above water when the ship was on even keel, thus no major initial flooding from there:

Looking at the midships section, where the stabiliser fins are located, there appears to be some thorn metal in this area:
47f08f52-4cf3-4136-8cd6-ed0f7d9ac49e

There should soon be some better pictures of the hull external one would hope.

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#141

Looks like the stabilizer to me. Could have been ripped though.

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#142

So single compartment hole (at stabilizer fins) sinks ships ?

What is important on those photos that the propeller shaft looks undamaged. Before there was some uncertainty about that.

I wonder what could be so secret about the tear line above water line that it required covering with shets.

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#143

This is the point of impact of MS Sola’s bulbous bow

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#144

MS Sola collides with the freeboard at the height of the torpedo mounts and with the bulb underneath, opening the main waterway in the draft hull of the Helge.

The bulb raises the frigate (320º) and the Sola’s freeboard opens the side as a can opener to the starboard fin while the bulb lifts the frigate.

At the end the frigate slides and, presumably, the bulb deflects the starboard shaft, which is pushed down by the weight of the stern of the frigate.

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