Foreign help hired? - Is that really happening

Professional Mariner Forum
22

The focus needs to be on the credential and not the citizenship.
The rules for citizenship are clear in the credential (GC or cit) and made by congress, subsequently embodied by the executive in the CFR.
Follow the law.

So which credential is this foreign labor sailing under when US flagged?

If not under a US credential then that makes requiring a US credential on US flag moot. The NMC needs to close since the credential does not matter.

If a COI manning waiver or call it whatever - STCW exemption, has been given, that needs to be clearly provided and made available for inspection. Liability for breaking the law should be enforced and fines imposed with impunity. Otherwise, the bureaucracy and establishment has to shut down or turn into an International registry.

I need the same choice afforded to the operator and a choice with my taxes (fed, state, county, local, prop, sales …) too and decide who I pay my taxes too on the 2.36 per hour. I’d prefer the rate that Philips requires and not the IRS average 33.
Sure beats tax on 0 dollars when operators have a choice to pay 2.36.
How would MITAGs and other MI’s like to be paid - in pesos at the overseas cost?

For rules of convenience (ROC - reflagging of Convenience) of flagging back, there has to penalties. If you reflag back and forth to US flag within a year, punity charges just like repairs carried out overseas (custom charges etc). We are losing revenue.

It is bad enough that the labor pool is shrinking very likely supported by pioneers in the industry and I do not mean the unions - a totally different entity with shortcomings of their own.
I did not see a single prognostic study (statements only) by North east Maritime spearheading the international registry showing how their new found proposed registry would help American mariners other than relegate them to a reserve type defense work force for which we have a very capable navy that may need the help of civ mar and by all means yes we’re ready - the quality of life is worth fighting for.
While the rest of the world devours our economic market cap and strength and the very spine of a nation - a fleet of commercial ships manned by competent mariners.

Jack Welch… uhuh - “The best thing for management is a floating labor force”.

Times are changing but there has to be a better way other than the crippling shoot ourselves in the foot and selling out for short term gains.
I say provide waivers and support operators, distribute short hand wages to the rest carrying if you do not want to reneg contracts but don’t take the easy way out and have tax payers fund the bureaucratic ecosystem while businesses run wild to keep their money.

23

What does the Lib contract pay. Any idea?
What does their contract say about foreign labor?
Have their MARAD contracts been reduced consequent to the waiver? I think not. Isn’t 60% opex manning?
Is their TCY 8000? Then why are we funding the MARAD deal.

The ecosystem supported by taxpayers at work.

24

Their MEBA ships were about $135,000 per year for Chief Mate after all overtime. There was a big raise recently and I hear that’s closer to $200,000 per year now.

Their grain ships were about $130,000 per year for Chief Mate, $100,000 per year for second mate, on December. I don’t know what their last contract negotiated in terms of raises but they have as new contract now as of February.

25

This thread is confusing as folks are mixing US flagged deep sea vessels (tankers, container vessels) with oil patch boats (OSVs) working foreign waters.

It’s apples to oranges.

I have not heard of foreign nationals working on US flagged deep sea vessels.

This issue seems to be confined to oil patch boats going from US waters, to foreign voyages and vice-versa.

26

This is not oil patch boats.

27

Waivers are bullshit. Wages must come up and benefits must improve. Sorry, but the seagoing maritime industry lags in pay snd benefits.

The out the gate pay is fantastic as a 3M, but management level is vastly underpaid. Across the board, the benefits suck. Compared to a corporate managment job (where, you might get laid a few times a week, too), lets see, we dont have PTO, work far too many hours, nothing such as paternity/maternity leave, no real disability. The benefits blow.

Its suck it up, you have a job. Meanwhile some old fuck sucks your retirement from you, because they didnt have it good enough (but they had it so good).

2 Likes
28

Best move I ever made was moving shoreside in a related field. Better pay, I work so much less and well, I’m fucking home. Sailing was going to give me cancer again (a 3rd time, if it happened again), sorry, but no other industry expects the intensity of work that deep sea sailing does.

The whole point of US Flag is US Officers and mostly US Crew. These operating companies recieve so much federal money to keep US Flag. Eages and benefits must rise to keep only US Officers.

2 Likes
29

Should not be difficult to verify if it is really happening. I expect there will be some reporting on the main site in addition to board based rumors if so.

30

The requirements are:

  • not more than 25% of the unlicensed crew
  • Must be aliens lawfully admitted to the United States for permanent residence
  • Must hold a valid USCG MMC.
  • Meet all other qualifications as the U.S. citizens; training, documentation etc.
  • for unions vessels they were required to be members of the union

By contrast the OSVs carve-out is not the same thing, it allows for non-U.S credentialed mariners.

Before the regulations were changed to allow non-U.S credentialed mariners to sail on U.S. flag OSVs the companies were granted waivers on a case-by-case basis. Presumably that’s what happening with U.S. flag deep-sea vessels but I’ve no experience with this.

31

I disagree that the 3M pay is fantastic out the gate. There is shoreside jobs with comparable pay nowadays. For 3AEs there are now shoreside jobs that pay more than what they would make compared to going to sea.

But I agree about management level. Which is why I think I think there is a lack of middle aged men nowadays. Old timers for deep sea have basically made the same amount their whole careers so inflation has cut into their real wage grow and they comparability make considerably less than years ago.

Also for management level there is a clear cap at how much you can make per year. Aka the capt and c/e salary. A young person looking to move up the ladder has to add up the huge liability, the limit on how much you can make, and the reality that real wage growth will most likely not happen with only 2% or 3% raises when inflation is 8%. Then those comfortable and comparable shoreside jobs don’t look too bad.

Increasingly common deepsea is people that only sail part time now. Maybe a couple months a year but have their own shoreside business.

32

Waivers must be 46 U.S. Code § 8103 - 3(c)

(3) The Secretary may waive a citizenship requirement under this section, other than a requirement that applies to the master of a documented vessel, with respect to–

(A) an offshore supply vessel or other similarly engaged vessel of less than 1,600 gross tons as measured under section 14502 of this title, or an alternate tonnage measured under section 14302 of this title as prescribed by the Secretary under section 14104 of this title that operates from a foreign port;

(B) a mobile offshore drilling unit or other vessel engaged in support of exploration, exploitation, or production of offshore mineral energy resources operating beyond the water above the outer Continental Shelf (as that term is defined in section 2(a) of the Outer Continental Shelf Lands Act (43 U.S.C. 1331(a)); and

(C) any other vessel if the Secretary determines, after an investigation, that qualified seamen who are citizens of the United States are not available.

33

Yes you have. We’ve told you about it in this thread.

1 Like
34

I’m fairly certain that they are receiving waivers but I am not positive. I know that at least one of the officers joined in the US and imagine there was some paperwork involved with CBP to get him to the ship but I really don’t know.

2 Likes
35

I sail deep sea US flagged ships in foreign trade.

1 Like
36

Sort of. On my ship the foreign officers make the same working rate as an American in the same position but do not get the vacation benefit. I believe, but I am not positive, that the vacation benefit kicks back to the union. I am under the impression that it is costing the company the same but I honestly don’t know. I have no idea how it works with unlicensed.

1 Like
37

Any manning waivers have to come from OCMI/USCG after an investigation - Secretary being the Sec of the dept of the Coast Guard.
Is the investigation and the waiver granted available for all to see - FOIA?

DHS for visa waivers, the DOL needed to see three ads and file proof that qualifications/expertise not available like a Masters/PHD etc.

On what grounds is a fresh seaman not better suited for the job over a foreign credential from lets say Ukkkk rain - a cred for 20 bucks with your choice of endorsements and only available to their citizenry. I know it because they said so.
For starters, we as taxpayers have funded 12 years (12* $14000 = 168k per DOE) of HS. Isn’t that a qualification worth investing in and our own speak English for starters, a requirement of a lot of the course work. The biggest benefit is you have another taxpaying individual - don’t we get it.
I see - we cannot handle the attitude and dissent and prefer subservience.

Unless this is more of an STCW compliance thing, which also does not work coz you need the COE (unlic and lic) from the flag state and we do not issue COE’s. Penalties from PSC when overseas. Or maybe a GIANT LOOPHOLE FOR A WAIVER?
How is any PSC overlooking manning requirements from the flag state. There is no DOE for RFPNW, AS-D or OICNW.

Grant waivers to fresh OS’s, give them stop gap interim AB’s, STOS etc after a short bootcamp.
Stop straddling and turning away freshman given a laundry list of disqualifications - AB, AS-D, DSD, RFPNW, SA etc (cost 1 month and 5 grand) and a 6 month wait, twic this that and the other. These are willing tax payers that are straddled by the unions coz the USCG cred is a requirement - penalized for being American and not provided the same privilege in a foreign land.
Let them earn, pay taxes, bitch and then support their raise of grades and follow a path like the rest till 6 feet below - A better way to sustain this ECOSYSTEM and retain the prosperity.

Has anyone seen a investigation/waiver so granted? This is not worth letting go - can’t have the middle class trampled on - we are the source of the largest chunk of taxes that sustains the gov.
Please post a copy of the waiver.

38

I saw this done in the nineties a couple times. The Unions were cool with it so long as the company paid into the fund (health, pension, etc…). The offshore labor worked at offshore rates.

39

Spot on with the wage issue. 2008 MPF MEBA ship(based on Marad wages) 2M was at 120k when you include everything. Fast forward to 2023 and its maybe 8% higher on a good OT ship. It is disgusting that the cost of living wasn’t even close to 3% each year with contract increases. SIU got that raise each year now and SA’s are making more than I did as a 3M in 2004.

40

An MMC issued by the CG? They are non US so they fail the cit/CG/at an academy requirement of the USC.

What is the implementation of the OSVs carve-out?
Is any license (cred) under any flag acceptable? And what are the acceptable flags of the OSV?

IMHO STCW rules, implemented by the ratifying flag state has to be complied with if beyond the baseline. Your cred has to be provided by the flag state (either a COC or a COE).

So what is the implementation of the waiver given to Liberty?

Just to clarify, this thread is not about contracts / pay / wheeling and dealing/getting union dues/vacation/pension/other union contrib etc.
Unions organize and do not create laws or waivers - only congress and the executive does that.
It is about complying with the law or a waiver - upholding the law. It is about my cost to credential ownership that is different to that afforded to someone else under the waiver.

Let us be clear - the operators (business) need to flourish and we need to help but not short their responsibility to AMERICA/AMERICANs thro’ exec waivers.

41

I think it’s a bit more than 20, but there most definitely is a price that grants whatever level/endorsement desired. Who wants to be master/chief?

1 Like