Cult of the Quaint

Professional Mariner Forum
1

This is a continuation of another thread, about the utility, or lack thereof, of celestial navigation nowadays, but [B]engineers rest assured you’re in here too[/B]. Engineers, you can jump to the last paragraph, and skip the rant about a subject you don’t care about.

The natural question is, at what point do the USCG and maritime academies drop all mention of celestial navigation? The argument is that celestial is a back-up plan for the advent of World War 4, when the GPS satellites are all shut down, or shot out of the sky. But there will soon be other satellite navigation systems, independent of GPS, as back-up, and if we are that worried the bright boys at DARPA can whip up a skookum 21[SUP]st[/SUP] century inertial guidance system for us in their spare time (probably have one already…)

I think the utility of celestial was discussed in another thread some time ago. But what wasn’t discussed was [B][I]the huge financial waste of fixating on celestial navigation[/I].[/B] There are only so many hours in an academy day. Does it make sense devoting so much time and effort to a nearly useless, arcane craft ? A case could be made that those hours could be better spent in simulators, getting trainees ready for every possible navigation scenario they could face, except for the least probable scenario: needing to take a celestial fix.

Training for celestial navigation is an example of a phenomena I call “The Cult of the Quaint”. Something that was once useful is lovingly, obsessively held on to, way past its expiration date. Like bayonet practice in the Army. Or firefighters wearing leather helmets with their 21[SUP]st[/SUP] century SCBas. Or the police hanging onto .38 revolvers into the 1990’s. Or any admiration of Pamela Lee Anderson. A sort of professional inertia sets in, where everyone does “this thing” because everyone did it before, regardless of the utility. The quaint Craft sets us apart from others. We are initiates into the Mystery, but really, you could put it on the shelf next to the buggy whip and Polaroid camera.

Two generations ago celestial navigation was the measure of a deck officer. Now it is something a cadet probably, proportionally, spends $30,000 to learn in an academy and then, after graduation, only uses to teach cadets who will also blow $30,000 for the thrill of becoming a cult member. We should all have membership cards and secret handshakes. The Cult of the Quaint. Which comes with a price tag. $30,000 multiplied by what? 360 cadets graduating a year? [B]That’s $10.8 million/annum[/B]. Then you can calculate how much the USCG devotes per year to managing and administering tests to make sure the cult is perpetuated for another generation. My guess? Couldn’t cost anything less than a $1 million. (Those numbers are just guesses. I invite others to come up with more accurate numbers). Of course, there is financial benefit, too. Cut off the Celestial Navigation Industrial Complex and all the people at Weems & Plath would be thrown out of work.

Yes, the U.S. Navy is reinstating celestial navigation training (kinda, sorta) but, as I said, there are only so many hours available for training in an academy. You might have to deliver a baby aboard ship, too, but the low statistical chance of it occurring means its not worth training for. Are future mates failing out of academies because they can’t master celestial? Well, that’s just plain silly. Fail them for laziness, fail them for lack of work ethic, but not for celestial.

Wouldn’t it be better to simply demand the USCG stop wasting everyone’s money, and do away with the Celestial Navigation Industrial Complex? Training, testing, equipment, all of it. Simply tell them, as an Industry, knock it off? We pay them. They work for us. Or am I missing something?….

Nor are deck officers unique members of the Cult of the Quaint. I am proud of the fact that I can 1) weld, 2) use a lathe 3) use a milling machine. But how many times have I used 2) and 3) in my maritime career? (The answer is the brand name of a cigarette lighter).

So here’s another question I’ve been meaning to ask: Engineers on Big Ships— [B]how many times do you really use the machine shop? [/B]The lathe and milling machine, I mean? You learned the art in the academy. Do you put it to use professionally in this modern age of overnight express mail, and automated spares warehouses aboard ship (I’m talking about you, Polar Tankers)? Or do you, too, have your own Cult of the Quaint?

2

If they don’t shoot stars, they’ll just watch movies or play video games…or chip and paint.

3

I must say I was very surprised when I saw a magnetic compass on a newly built Tidewater vessel. What on earth would a modern psv need a magnetic compass for?

I had to endure long hours of celestial navigation like everyone else at school, but a sextant is not something we need to have on a modern vessel luckly.

The problem is that IMO is populated with a lot of countries that are not as “modern” as us westerners. And as long as it’s a demand in the STCW code, we have to waste time on it.

4

In the past enlisted Navy and Coast Guard did most if not all the day to day celestial tasks. Even if the officers didn’t learn it there would still be crewmembers that were proficient on board. Not sure if it’s still done that way.

5

[QUOTE=Kraken;188852]I must say I was very surprised when I saw a magnetic compass on a newly built Tidewater vessel. What on earth would a modern psv need a magnetic compass for?

I had to endure long hours of celestial navigation like everyone else at school, but a sextant is not something we need to have on a modern vessel luckly.

The problem is that IMO is populated with a lot of countries that are not as “modern” as us westerners. And as long as it’s a demand in the STCW code, we have to waste time on it.[/QUOTE]

The magnetic compass is the only instrument that works without electricity in the pilot house. As far as I know, it USCG required equipment. Many good reasons to have it and no reason not to.

When the gyro goes down, it’s nice to have a magnetic compass and the ability to switch the autopilot over to it quickly.

6

[QUOTE=freighterman;188846]This is a continuation of another thread, about the utility, or lack thereof, of celestial navigation nowadays, but [B]engineers rest assured you’re in here too[/B]. Engineers, you can jump to the last paragraph, and skip the rant about a subject you don’t care about.

The natural question is, at what point do the USCG and maritime academies drop all mention of celestial navigation? The argument is that celestial is a back-up plan for the advent of World War 4, when the GPS satellites are all shut down, or shot out of the sky. But there will soon be other satellite navigation systems, independent of GPS, as back-up, and if we are that worried the bright boys at DARPA can whip up a skookum 21[SUP]st[/SUP] century inertial guidance system for us in their spare time (probably have one already…)

I think the utility of celestial was discussed in another thread some time ago. But what wasn’t discussed was [B][I]the huge financial waste of fixating on celestial navigation[/I].[/B] There are only so many hours in an academy day. Does it make sense devoting so much time and effort to a nearly useless, arcane craft ? A case could be made that those hours could be better spent in simulators, getting trainees ready for every possible navigation scenario they could face, except for the least probable scenario: needing to take a celestial fix.

Training for celestial navigation is an example of a phenomena I call “The Cult of the Quaint”. Something that was once useful is lovingly, obsessively held on to, way past its expiration date. Like bayonet practice in the Army. Or firefighters wearing leather helmets with their 21[SUP]st[/SUP] century SCBas. Or the police hanging onto .38 revolvers into the 1990’s. Or any admiration of Pamela Lee Anderson. A sort of professional inertia sets in, where everyone does “this thing” because everyone did it before, regardless of the utility. The quaint Craft sets us apart from others. We are initiates into the Mystery, but really, you could put it on the shelf next to the buggy whip and Polaroid camera.

Two generations ago celestial navigation was the measure of a deck officer. Now it is something a cadet probably, proportionally, spends $30,000 to learn in an academy and then, after graduation, only uses to teach cadets who will also blow $30,000 for the thrill of becoming a cult member. We should all have membership cards and secret handshakes. The Cult of the Quaint. Which comes with a price tag. $30,000 multiplied by what? 360 cadets graduating a year? [B]That’s $10.8 million/annum[/B]. Then you can calculate how much the USCG devotes per year to managing and administering tests to make sure the cult is perpetuated for another generation. My guess? Couldn’t cost anything less than a $1 million. (Those numbers are just guesses. I invite others to come up with more accurate numbers). Of course, there is financial benefit, too. Cut off the Celestial Navigation Industrial Complex and all the people at Weems & Plath would be thrown out of work.

Yes, the U.S. Navy is reinstating celestial navigation training (kinda, sorta) but, as I said, there are only so many hours available for training in an academy. You might have to deliver a baby aboard ship, too, but the low statistical chance of it occurring means its not worth training for. Are future mates failing out of academies because they can’t master celestial? Well, that’s just plain silly. Fail them for laziness, fail them for lack of work ethic, but not for celestial.

Wouldn’t it be better to simply demand the USCG stop wasting everyone’s money, and do away with the Celestial Navigation Industrial Complex? Training, testing, equipment, all of it. Simply tell them, as an Industry, knock it off? We pay them. They work for us. Or am I missing something?….

Nor are deck officers unique members of the Cult of the Quaint. I am proud of the fact that I can 1) weld, 2) use a lathe 3) use a milling machine. But how many times have I used 2) and 3) in my maritime career? (The answer is the brand name of a cigarette lighter).

So here’s another question I’ve been meaning to ask: Engineers on Big Ships— [B]how many times do you really use the machine shop? [/B]The lathe and milling machine, I mean? You learned the art in the academy. Do you put it to use professionally in this modern age of overnight express mail, and automated spares warehouses aboard ship (I’m talking about you, Polar Tankers)? Or do you, too, have your own Cult of the Quaint?[/QUOTE]

A three week celestial course at Crawford costs what, $1200. Is celestial for $1200 a better deal than $1200 for four days of leadership and management? Is three weeks of celestial more valuable time spent than two weeks of GDMSS and another week of any other STCW courses you can think of.

Learning celestial, and actually being able to do it, makes one a much better terrestrial navigator. Celestial is rarely used today, but that does not mean learning it is without value.

Then there are those rare occasions where celestial comes in handy, if it’s not constantly overcast: lost a couple wheelhouse Windows and drowned most of the electronics; struck by lightning and fried most of the electronics; antennas snapped off or cables pulled off after icing up, and electrical fire in the crawl space under the wheelhouse burned up the power supplies and junction boxes for the wheelhouse electronics.

Why learn terrestrial navigation? We have a pilot house full of video games to do all that for us!!!

7

The magnetic compass is also a convenient way to check on the gyro at any time, it’s done routinely after each course change. Losing heading information could cause problems quickly.

By contrast losing GPS would be bad news but if the ship is near navigation hazards other methods to determine position will likely be available (radar, visual, soundings). If available methods were not available but hazards were nearby the track could be adjusted to stay clear of hazards to make good use of available landmarks, sounding etc. A celestial fix is not going to be on constant standby as a back-up the way the magnetic compass is.

8

I absolutely hated learning CelNav and thought (and still think) it’s completely archaic. HOWEVER, one of my instructors once phrased it this way, “Knowing how to do Celestial is what makes us all Professional Navigators rather then a guy on a boat with a GPS”. It is a situation of “Cult of the Quaint” thinking as you say, but I don’t think it’s a bad thing.

9

3weeks c-nav at MAMA is $2500. It’s $2000 for 2 weeks at CMTI. All for a course that teaches a subject that no one on a tugboat or OSV will ever use. Even if we had to for some reason I have never been on a tug that had a sextant or the publications needed to get a fix.

10

[QUOTE=tugsailor;188858]Then there are those rare occasions where celestial comes in handy, if it’s not constantly overcast: lost a couple wheelhouse Windows and drowned most of the electronics; struck by lightning and fried most of the electronics; antennas snapped off or cables pulled off after icing up, and electrical fire in the crawl space under the wheelhouse burned up the power supplies and junction boxes for the wheelhouse electronics.[/QUOTE]
I would have been there with you on this argument until a couple of years ago. Trouble is, most of the scenario you just postulated actually happened to a ship in our fleet, out in the Gulf of Alaska, last winter. Wave took out a wheelhouse window in a storm. Destroyed a lot of electronics. I asked the captain afterwards, did you pull out the paper charts? Of course not. He had a spare laptop ready to go with Rosepoint, in his cabin. I asked him how did you navigate without the ship’s GPSs? DR, then radar fixes? He looked at me like I was an idiot. He brought his own GPS, he said. Always has it in case of emergency. And what did it matter? It was the Gulf Of Alaska in winter! He could have been setup with nav instruments like Captain Cook, but without a glimpse of the sky they would have been useless. Like I said, tugsailor, I would have been right there with you in regards to celestial until a few years ago, but Reality can dope-slap awfully hard…

Also, I don’t mean to argue. We have our own views on the subject, and I respect yours. However, I know (knew) celestial, and I navigated for years up and down the PNW Inside Passage, and the equally challenging South Alaskan Peninsula Passage, and never did knowledge of celestial help, or inform me, as to terrestrial navigation. And this in the days before GPS, and no reliable LORAN. A helluva lot of more time on the old-time radar simulators in the academy would have, but we didn’t get the time because we were studying guess what…

11

Celestial was a fun class but the reality of it is I have most likely forgot most of it by now and would need a good once over of my notes from a decade ago. Same goes for flashing light morse classes at the academy not really going to see that anymore other than SOS.

12

[QUOTE=freighterman;188867]I would have been there with you on this argument until a couple of years ago. Trouble is, most of the scenario you just postulated actually happened to a ship in our fleet, out in the Gulf of Alaska, last winter. Wave took out a wheelhouse window in a storm. Destroyed a lot of electronics. I asked the captain afterwards, did you pull out the paper charts? Of course not. He had a spare laptop ready to go with Rosepoint, in his cabin. I asked him how did you navigate without the ship’s GPSs? DR, then radar fixes? He looked at me like I was an idiot. He brought his own GPS, he said. Always has it in case of emergency. And what did it matter? It was the Gulf Of Alaska in winter! He could have been setup with nav instruments like Captain Cook, but without a glimpse of the sky they would have been useless. Like I said, tugsailor, I would have been right there with you in regards to celestial until a few years ago, but Reality can dope-slap awfully hard…

Also, I don’t mean to argue. We have our own views on the subject, and I respect yours. However, I know (knew) celestial, and I navigated for years up and down the PNW Inside Passage, and the equally challenging South Alaskan Peninsula Passage, and never did knowledge of celestial help, or inform me, as to terrestrial navigation. And this in the days before GPS, and no reliable LORAN. A helluva lot of more time on the old-time radar simulators in the academy would have, but we didn’t get the time because we were studying guess what…[/QUOTE]

That’s quite alright.

Years ago, I actually used celestial. It was a back up for loran, someplaces loran only gave one lop, someplaces were beyond loran coverage, and under certain atmospheric conditions loran does not work; celestial was needed. I have used celestial a couple times when the GPS stopped working. I’ve had a couple situations where we lost use of all or most the wheelhouse electronics.

The most reliable device in the wheelhouse is the magnetic compass. Next is the fathometer. With those and a wristwatch, a navigator can do quite a lot.

You make a good point about having personal gear for back up. Like many guys, I too carry a laptop with GPS antenna and Rosepoint (and tables for celestial), and a few other goodies. I carry it mainly because I never know what half-working old junk without any manuals I may find when I get to a vessel. Even if a boat has newer good working gear, it might have Transas or Nobeltec, or something else that I don’t have time to figure out how to use before I need to make a voyage plan and sail.

I also have the quaint notion that knowing how to do celestial separates the real navigators from the guys who only know how to play video games.

13

An argument could be made that a lot of recent incidents could have been avoided with better leadership and management. Costa Concordia, Aiviq/Kulluk, Seawol, Tote/El Faro, come to mind, there are many others. Cel Nav wouldn’t have helped in any case I can think of offhand.

Not saying the L&M classes alone would have made the difference in each specific instance but poor leadership and management is very common in the maritime sector.

14

Sometime around 1983-84 I was on an American Jackup rig being towed from Nigeria to Angola (Cabinda)by two American OSVs, one of which had got SatNav receiver installed specially for that voyage. (Long before GPS)

Less than a day out the SatNav packed up for some reason. I asked the Tugmasters to break out the sextant but, even if there was one, none on board had any idea how to use one, or how to do celestial navigation calculation.

To turn around was not an option, so I decided to continue across the Gulf of Guinea on DR, an open sea passage of abt 300 n.miles. at 2.5-3.0 kts.

Although both boats had magnetic compasses (no gyros), none had a working log, so determining the speed became an issue.

I got a magnetic compass from a lifeboat set it up in the Control room to keep an eye on the heading.
What about SOG? A piece of wood and a stop watch was the solution;
One person dropped the wood from the Helideck, then clock the time from it hit water until it got abeam of the transom. Some simple calculations + guesstimate of current from memory, SOG was “determined”.

I had given a wager and an estimate of when we would see the lighthouse at Cape Lopez, near Port Gentil, but when it it did not show on time I started to get worried. No, not that we would run aground or anything, but that I would loose the bet.
About an hour late the first flashes popped up above horizon and nearly dead ahead, which was within my wager.

From there on we just followed the coast within good radar distance. No more ventures into open ocean, thank you.

Could this have happened today? NO WAY. There would have been better instruments on the boats, not being reliant on a SatNav only. There would also have been dozens of telephones with GPS facilities on the rig and probably some “spare” portable GPS receivers on the boats.

Besides, today I would NEVER have start the tow without the boats being adequately equipped and crewed with qualified personnel for the voyage. But this was in the “good old days”, when things were done differently, especially in Africa.

15

Well seeing how no other Engineers have Spoke up I guess it’s up to me.

As for using the Machine Shop, Yes it gets used. I have used quite a few lathes for making bushings and basic stuff. One time I had to used the lathe to true up a pump shaft as we didn’t have a spare. Unfortunately, most of the use of the Machine Shop was for personal jobs from home. Man, I saw some really cool stuff made!

So, is a Machine Shop really needed, Not Sure but when it is needed it sure was nice to have.

16

[QUOTE=Tugs;188887]Unfortunately, most of the use of the Machine Shop was for personal jobs from home. Man, I saw some really cool stuff made! [/QUOTE]

We get training for lathes, milling machines, etc at school. I heard about a BC Ferries Cheif who was using his on-board machine shop to make a working model steam engine from scratch. This kind of thing makes me bat my eyes like a floozy.

17

[QUOTE=Tugs;188887]Well seeing how no other Engineers have Spoke up I guess it’s up to me.

As for using the Machine Shop, Yes it gets used. I have used quite a few lathes for making bushings and basic stuff. One time I had to used the lathe to true up a pump shaft as we didn’t have a spare. Unfortunately, most of the use of the Machine Shop was for personal jobs from home. Man, I saw some really cool stuff made!

So, is a Machine Shop really needed, Not Sure but when it is needed it sure was nice to have.[/QUOTE]

I sailed on vessels with and without machine shops or with some equipment to none. If I had the equipment, I used it. On those vessels where I didn’t or had inadequate equipment, we would order parts made. Sometimes they even got them right. . .but having the machining skills was/is indispensable.

18

[QUOTE=cmakin;188904]I sailed on vessels with and without machine shops or with some equipment to none. If I had the equipment, I used it. On those vessels where I didn’t or had inadequate equipment, we would order parts made. Sometimes they even got them right. . .but having the machining skills was/is indispensable.[/QUOTE]

And sometimes there’s little things you can make that are helpful and clever. Sailed with this tremendously skilled welder (not an engineer, actually). There was an expensive in-sea sensor on the towed gear that was always getting beat-to-shit. He designed and built up a very clever protector for it, and then made up enough more so that there were spares for when he was on his home rotation.

The personal projects should be encouraged, I think. Keeps a person’s skills sharp for when they’re needed and you can look like a miracle worker when you don’t have the spares or the bridge guys need another cup-holder or something. If I make you something in the shop that you didn’t ask for, you know I like you.

19

I don’t know what it is, but I have big problems logging inn and answering in threads :frowning:

The point I was going to make is that on a PSV you have 3 gyros on board, so a magnetic compass would be redundant.

20

[QUOTE=Kraken;188914]I don’t know what it is, but I have big problems logging inn and answering in threads :frowning:

The point I was going to make is that on a PSV you have 3 gyros on board, so a magnetic compass would be redundant.[/QUOTE]

3 gyros are required for DP 2 / 3 Class, never mind if they are PSVs or any other type of vessels.
If so, Magnetic Compass is not REQUIRED, but many have one anyhow. They also carry Deviation Curve and Compass Error Book. (Not always up to date)
Most I have seen also have a Magnaflux Compass + GPS Compass, just in case.