Crossing Situations with Sailboats

Professional Mariner Forum
101

[QUOTE=Boatmad;83929]Shared post from ‘Cruisers Forum’ from thread ‘Freighters vs. sailboats’:

(3) close quarters situations develop because sailing boats are in general the stand on vessel, are correctly applying the COLREGS and the approaching merchant vessel does not apply the COLREGS ( for whatever reason) . If merchant vessels applied the COLREGS as required we wouldn’t be talking about this issue here. Excuses such as turning circles, stopping speeds , or that you have already agreed certain passing strategies the other large ships ARE IRRELEVANT, the sailing vessel,under the COLREGS is the stand on vessel and you are required to change course and give way. If you cannot do so correctly you should slow right down so as to facilitate such a manoeuvre.
[/QUOTE]

This is not my experience. My last two experiences with S/Vs were both in narrow channels. One was in the Sabine River a S/V crossed in front of an inbound tanker, we were outbound. Each of the large vessel had a pilot aboard. The tanker went hard left and missed the S/V but not by much. Then they had to go hard right to get back on the right side of the channel to avoid us.

The second one was in Chesapeake Bay, A sailing vessel tried to cross the channel behind us but in front of an in bound bulker. The S/V called the bulker and demanded more room. The S/V was unaware that the loaded bulker was restricted to the channel.

As far as a large ship slowing down, a ship with a low-speed diesel is unlikely to slow down due to limitations of the engine.

K.C.

102

A specific, hypothetical situation might go like this.

I’m northbound at 20 kts meeting a southbound ship also at 20 kts port to port with a CPA of about 0.7 mile. To starboard about 1/2 mile are 10 S/Vs, some fishing vessels, various pleasure craft, some crossing from starboard to port and some milling about. Further to starboard are waters too shoal for my vessel but ok for S/V. We are all going to meet at about the same time. As the crossing sailboats get closer to my track, one by one they round up or turn back wanting to avoid a close quarters situation. One S/V however continues to cross with a 0 CPA. (this has actually happened)

If I come right and aim for the S/Vs that have held up, and then crank back back around astern of the one S/V with lots of rudder, I risk scattering the nine S/V and other recreational craft to the four winds making my situation many times worse and also closer to shoal water. I also risk the S/V deciding to spin about to join his friends.

Another option is to turn left towards the southbound and then back around but with a closing speed of 40 kts this has risks as well.

One problem is I don’t know how the S/V understands the situation. Some possibility are
:
They believe there is sufficient room for me to alter to starboard

They only understand “power gives way to sail” and they plan to stand on, .

They plan to stay clear but want to come in for a closer look

They are unaware of the second vessel and expect me to come left - they plan to stand on

They are aware of the second vessel but believe that there is plenty of room - they plan to stand on

They may be unaware that the water to the right is too shoal for me.

they think they can make it across safely

In this case the lowest risk tactic may be to sound the danger signal and stand-on as long as safe then before reaching an in extremis situation, turn left away from the S/V but towards the south bound. If I wait till I’m close to the one S/V I can get straighten back out before I get too close to the south bound. This is lower risk then zig-zagging though 10 sailing vessels at 20 kts.

Essentially the one S/V may (or may not) believe it is in a simple crossing situation with a single vessel while the larger vessel believes it is in a situation with several vessels.

K.C.

103

Most often it is not a matter of the SV being OUT of the channel. It is a matter of the SV wandering right smackdab in the exact CENTER of the channel that absolutely amazes. I understand the concern with running aground. No one wants to do that. But why are yachters so myopic about situational awareness?

104

First, I realize this is an old thread.

I’m one of WAFI’s cruisers, I sail sloops in Puget Sound and the San Juans.

I’d like to know if there are any Puget Sound Pilots here, and if the comments in this thread apply when there are a hundred sails between Sierra Delta and Yankee Tango.

Do you really want to talk to all or most of us?

There are places in Puget Sound where we’re going to be in the VTS lanes. You aren’t going to detect us at twenty miles. There are a number of reasons why I’d like to hear specifically from Puget Sound Pilots. Puget Sound isn’t like driving a train through an orderly, regulated rail yard. Puget Sound is more like driving an SUV through a crowded playground at recess.

105

I sail my boat out of Shilshole when I’m home. I use my smart phone to check Marine Traffic and see if there is any north/southbound traffic. Gives me an idea of who’s coming. A pilot is not going to call you. He’s going to blow the danger signal if a sailboat is too incompetent to realize there is a risk of collision. What is he going to say on the radio when he is surrounded by a dozen white sailboats? No way they can read the name on the transom. I always have my radio on 14&16 to keep an ear out for deep drafts. 13 also required listening watch on vessels > 20m. I’m not a pilot, but I’ve run those traffic lanes on ships dozens of times. Puget Sound not so bad. San Fran & San Diego much worse with regards to blow boat traffic.

106

[QUOTE=Quimby;146976]I sail my boat out of Shilshole when I’m home. I use my smart phone to check Marine Traffic and see if there is any north/southbound traffic. Gives me an idea of who’s coming. A pilot is not going to call you. He’s going to blow the danger signal if a sailboat is too incompetent to realize there is a risk of collision. What is he going to say on the radio when he is surrounded by a dozen white sailboats? No way they can read the name on the transom. I always have my radio on 14&16 to keep an ear out for deep drafts. 13 also required listening watch on vessels > 20m. I’m not a pilot, but I’ve run those traffic lanes on ships dozens of times. Puget Sound not so bad. San Fran & San Diego much worse with regards to blow boat traffic.[/QUOTE]

That’s a good point. Given that the deep draft vessels can be tracked easily by smart phone is there any good reason the sailboats can’t time the crossing to avoid vessels using the lanes?

107

[QUOTE=Jammer Six;146974]
Do you really want to talk to all or most of us?

[/QUOTE]

not a pilot there, but here you go:

No, but we all want you to make it OBVIOUS you see us and not even get close to getting in our way. If you want to cross our bow closely (say less than a mile cpa?) or something, you need to call on 13 and clearly identify who you are, and what you want to do if the CPA will be a concern. Example, to make it clear, would be “(insert ships names, you’ll know this as you’ve been listening to 13), this is the red hulled 35’ sailing vessel, on a northwesterly course one mile off your port bow…” establish comm’s first THEN attempt to make passing arrangements. …if they have any more question as to who you are, make sure you have something to make it easily identifiable. This happens rarely, and it takes practice to get proficient working on 13 too. the best thing is to just listen to 13 or whatever channel (not 16) and maintain good awareness of the vessels around you.

Pilots in some places have a mentality that they will just lean on the horn, as they are not going to make an evasive menuever in close quarters to avoid a sailboat and put a ship aground in the process. You really can’t argue with that logic. How the hell a WAFI can’t avoid a 1000’ shipmaking 7 knots in a narrow channel that has been making security calls etc shouldn’t be the pilot’s problem.

108

There is no reason they can’t track these ships and give them a decent CPA using the smart phone AIS app and maybe a chart plotting app. Marine Traffic tells you their speed and general location (pos updates should be every 6-10sec). All you need is distance to your location and you can get a rough estimate of when the ship will be in the immediate area. I’m guessing they don’t teach that kind of stuff at sailing schools. Or if the sailboat has AIS themselves, there is absolutely no excuse not to be able to get out of the way. Sailors are cheap and don’t have most of the gear we use on a regular basis for collision avoidance.

109

I’m also not a PS Pilot, but my run includes Puget Sound weekly.

One of the best pieces of advice given so far is to listen to Channel 13. This is where the pilots tend to make their passing arrangements, whether that be with other ships, tugs, or the ferries. You could also listen to the applicable VTS channel, but that would require a second radio so it might not be feasible for the average sailboater. Marine traffic apps are also a good shout.

Bear in mind your responsibilities under Rule 10, and know where you are in relation to the TSS. That said, never assume that a ship is going to slavishly follow the TSS. Sometimes they’ll deviate to help a crossing situation with a ferry, or they may even swing wide to stay clear of a log tow. A common maneuver in Puget Sound is passing west of the TB buoy northbound–in other words, in the opposite traffic lane.

If it’s foggy out, best to stay as far away as possible. It can be very difficult to pick up small vessels on radar. Failing that, get the best radar reflector you can.

Also, it’s best not to try to cross ahead of large ships. From your perspective it can appear that the ship is not moving that quickly, but can often be making 20+ knots. Not a good situation when you think you can make it, only to look up and realize the ship is [I]right there[/I]. Along the same lines, realize that crossing ahead at two-tenths of a mile looks a lot differently to you than it does to the ship–often, that distance means you’re not even visible from the ship’s bridge.

And last, but certainly not least, do NOT be that guy who tacks back and forth in front of ships.

110

I find the attitude of some of the so called professional mariners on this post truly absurd. Here is a sailboater asking for guidance and most posts are offensive. I say this both as a 6000 T Oceans master, licensed in UK/US/France and a competitive yacht sailor. In most situations, you want to avoid an accident. Talk about situational awareness… Read the COLREGS. I can quote you most Colregs, [Offshore/Inland US/Inland Europe/Inland Rhine…] and they WILL NOT prevent an accident. Truly situational awareness… Wake up and look out of the window!

The point is that we have many tools at out disposal, that allow us to AVOID accidents. Most problems occur when sailboats cross very busy traffic separation in fog/bad weather, or a the start of one the classic offshore races, [see large cargo that catches spinnaker halyard off sailboat off Cowes, dragging boat back and under… incident in full daylight good conditions]. If you have the luxury of AIS, [means you have upgraded VHF], it helps. I would suggest to yachtsmen to get themselves an AIS upgrade. At least they can identify the giant Container ship bearing down on them in a traffic separation scheme in for example Channel or off Portugal as has happened to me. In absence, try to cross during daylight, have your Radar deflector up, use the VHF to signal that you are crossing. That is what it is for. And NO the MCA does NOT tell mariner not to use VHF. It is to be used to avoid dangerous situations. What is meant that you are not supposed to use 16 to book a table in the local Yacht Marina restaurant. This is common sense.

I would add to my very unhelpful professional bretheren, that had you been up for two weeks on various all night shifts doing an Atlantic crossing on a small sailboat, you would appreciate that some yachtsmen have indeed a set of skills which is far deeper than your own. Many of you are autopilot ARPA monkeys. You do not have any idea what it means to change course based on apparent wind angle for a 3000 miles crossing under sail.

So in the interests of safety, you the professional lot should try to communicate on VHF with that blip on the radar screen. You might find that in most cases you will connect to some-one who will be grateful for having been spotted.

111

What you may not appreciate, or even comprehend is that the recreational and even amateur racing community in the United States is very very different from Europe. The fact of the matter is that professional sailors in Europe are rock stars, but if you ask someone in the states who Francis Joyon is you will be met with a blank stare.
It is this attitude towards those that truly possess the skill set that also holds the skills of being a competent mariner in high regard. In the United States however your average sailor is far more ignorant of the skill set and unfortunately generally happy to “stumble” from on place to another. Generally unaware of and near disasters, and completely ignorant of what is going on for the commercial traffic they see. It’s the “lack of failure IS evidence of success” attitude.
I come from a seafaring background and own a sailboat myself. I am also professional mariner, and in my off time I used to be more involved some recreational circles. Not as much anymore, aside from Internet forums, because the recreation crowd caused me enough heartburn at work. I didn’t need any more while I was home as well!

112

[I][B]Vivatei,[/B][/I]

…[I][B]a 6000 T Oceans master, licensed in UK/US/France and a competitive yacht sailor…I can quote you most Colregs, [Offshore/Inland US/Inland Europe/Inland Rhine…][/B][/I]

Yawn…

[I][B]Wake up and look out of the window![/B][/I]

Absolutely! Couldn’t agree with you more.

[B][I]…you are not supposed to use 16 to book a table in the local Yacht Marina restaurant.[/I][/B]

Too late.

[I][B]I would add to my very unhelpful professional bretheren…[/B][/I]

Hater.

[B][I]…had you been up for two weeks on various all night shifts doing an Atlantic crossing on a small sailboat, you would appreciate that some yachtsmen have indeed a set of skills which is far deeper than your own.[/I][/B]

How deep!?!

[I][/I][B]
So in the interests of safety, you the professional lot should try to communicate on VHF with that blip on the radar screen. You might find that in most cases you will connect to some-one who will be grateful for having been spotted.[/B]

Some of us have local knowledge regarding the original poster’s query. We’re just telling it how it is…and not how it should be. Just say’n.

113

[QUOTE=Vivatei;147151]I find the attitude of some of the so called professional mariners on this post truly absurd. Here is a sailboater asking for guidance and most posts are offensive. I say this both as a 6000 T Oceans master, licensed in UK/US/France and a competitive yacht sailor. In most situations, you want to avoid an accident. Talk about situational awareness… Read the COLREGS. I can quote you most Colregs, [Offshore/Inland US/Inland Europe/Inland Rhine…] and they WILL NOT prevent an accident. Truly situational awareness… Wake up and look out of the window!

The point is that we have many tools at out disposal, that allow us to AVOID accidents. Most problems occur when sailboats cross very busy traffic separation in fog/bad weather, or a the start of one the classic offshore races, [see large cargo that catches spinnaker halyard off sailboat off Cowes, dragging boat back and under… incident in full daylight good conditions]. If you have the luxury of AIS, [means you have upgraded VHF], it helps. I would suggest to yachtsmen to get themselves an AIS upgrade. At least they can identify the giant Container ship bearing down on them in a traffic separation scheme in for example Channel or off Portugal as has happened to me. In absence, try to cross during daylight, have your Radar deflector up, use the VHF to signal that you are crossing. That is what it is for. And NO the MCA does NOT tell mariner not to use VHF. It is to be used to avoid dangerous situations. What is meant that you are not supposed to use 16 to book a table in the local Yacht Marina restaurant. This is common sense.

I would add to my very unhelpful professional bretheren, that had you been up for two weeks on various all night shifts doing an Atlantic crossing on a small sailboat, you would appreciate that some yachtsmen have indeed a set of skills which is far deeper than your own. Many of you are autopilot ARPA monkeys. You do not have any idea what it means to change course based on apparent wind angle for a 3000 miles crossing under sail.

So in the interests of safety, you the professional lot should try to communicate on VHF with that blip on the radar screen. You might find that in most cases you will connect to some-one who will be grateful for having been spotted.[/QUOTE]

Blah, blah, blah.

Yup. The linked video says it all. Apparently there was one sailor not using [I]"…many tools at out (sic) disposal…"[/I]

114 
Shit!  They got knocked right out of their dock shoes!
115

With regards to the MCA advice to avoid use of the VHF and simply adhere to the COLREGS; this guidance is more applicable with vessel encounters between similar vessels or vessel which fall neatly into the Part B Steering and Sailing Rules. With encounters which fall into the more subjective parts of the COLREGS (when does risk of collision exist, limitation of the vessels involved, good seamanship,) or complex situations ( heavy traffic or nearby navigation hazards) then the use of VHF might be useful to resolve any ambiguity.

116

The radio is your FRIEND. If more pleasure boaters were more comfortable with their VHF’s there wouldn’t be even a percent of the incidents that there are now. One of the biggest annoyances I have run in to is calling a sailboat, even when you can very clearly read the name and call them by name over the VHF, ONLY to have nothing but SILENCE answer you in return. [B][U]Turn the radio on, turn the volume up, and observe proper radio protocol (no chit-chat on 16!!!).[/U][/B]

ALSO, if you own a boat then you are therefor no stranger to spending money, SO INVEST IN AN AIS. They’re not cheap but they are INCREDIBLY worthwhile. Another problem I have observed is that I know people who own ridiculously expensive sailboats and would spend any amount of money on their beautification, and yet, THEY HAVE NO RADAR! ARE YOU KIDDING ME!? GET A RADAR! [B]GET A RADAR![/B] [B][U]GET A RADAR![/U][/B]

Sailboaters are not bad people. I am one myself, as some of you may have discerned from my “avatar” photograph of a 4-masted schooner. Fortunately for me, I have been quite successful in melding my sailboat-life and workboat-life so that when I do sail I am perhaps THE ONLY sailboat that commercial vessels don’t have to worry about. I just wish that sailboaters would recognize and respect that they are part of a larger community that has established rules and protocols for EVERYONE to follow, not just big containerships and oil tankers. The rules apply to EVERYONE or they apply to NO ONE. Suffice it to say that NO ONE is NOT an option.

Good luck, bon voyage, and STAY SAFE OUT THERE!

117

From MGN 324

Use of VHF as Collision Avoidance Aid

  1. There have been a significant number of collisions where subsequent investigation has found that at some stage before impact, one or both parties were using VHF radio in an attempt to avoid collision. The use of VHF radio in these circumstances is not always helpful and may even prove to be dangerous.

  2. At night, in restricted visibility or when there are more than two vessels in the vicinity, the need for positive identification is essential but this can rarely be guaranteed. Uncertainties can arise over the identification of vessels and the interpretation of messages received. Even where positive identification has been achieved there is still the possibility of a misunderstanding due to language difficulties however fluent the parties concerned might be in the language being used. An imprecise or ambiguously expressed message could have serious consequences.

  3. Valuable time can be wasted whilst mariners on vessels approaching each other try to make contact on VHF radio instead of complying with the Collision Regulations. There is the further danger that even if contact and identification is achieved and no difficulties over the language of communication or message content arise, a course of action might still be chosen that does not comply with the Collision Regulations. This may lead to the collision it was intended to prevent.

  4. In 1995, the judge in a collision case said “It is very probable that the use of VHF radio for conversation between these ships was a contributory cause of this collision, if only because it distracted the officers on watch from paying careful attention to their radar. I must repeat, in the hope that it will achieve some publicity, what I have said on previous occasions that any attempt to use VHF to agree the manner of passing is fraught with the danger of misunderstanding. Marine Superintendents would be well advised to prohibit such use of VHF radio and to instruct their officers to comply with the Collision Regulations.”

  5. In a case published in 2002 one of two vessels, approaching each other in fog, used the VHF radio to call for a red to red (port to port) passing. The call was acknowledged by the other vessel but unfortunately, due to the command of English on the calling vessel, what the caller intended was a green to green (starboard to starboard) passing. The actions were not effectively monitored by either of the vessels and collision followed.

  6. Again in a case published in 2006 one of two vessels, approaching one another to involve a close quarter’s situation, agreed to a starboard to starboard passing arrangement with a person on board another, unidentified ship, but not the approaching vessel. Furthermore, the passing agreement required one of the vessels to make an alteration of course, contrary to the requirements of the applicable Rule in the COLREGS. Had the vessel agreed to a passing arrangement requiring her to manoeuvre in compliance with the COLREGS, the ships would have passed clear, despite the misidentification of ships on the VHF radio. Unfortunately by the time both vessels realised that the ships had turned towards each other the distance between them had further reduced to the extent that the last minute avoiding action taken by both ships was unable to prevent a collision.

  7. Although the practice of using VHF radio as a collision avoidance aid may be resorted to on occasion, for example in pilotage waters, the risks described in this note should be clearly understood and the Collision Regulations complied with.

118

I think we are wasting our breath. He only wants to hear from Puget Sound Pilots. Sniff…sniff…

119

I’m the one who only wants to hear from Puget Sound Pilots. WAFI, the original poster, wants to hear from all of you.

I started a new thread so this one doesn’t get hijacked.