Thanks everyone for the input, it’s valuable information that I greatly appreciate.
I’m still a little confused about everything with the sea time, I’m sure it will make sense as I go on.
I’m taking the job at centerline and seeing where it takes me. Stoked!!
Only ITBs are considered “rigidly connected” and there’s almost none of them left in existence.
Thanks Capt_Phoenix and everyone else that commented.
It would appear that I have a lot to learn.
Good thing I’m all in. And good thing I have found a resource like gcaptain, with all you Ole Salts passing down your wisdom to us willin to listen and to learn
Pick up a copy of Primer Of Towing. It will specify the difference and a great addition to the library as you advance.
Yes I did, and what I’m getting at is that there are a few ATBs where you can get true unlimited time, not on a 2 for 1 basis, and not under the circumstances of an evaluator giving out an unlimited license by mistake as you said “it’s not supposed to happen”.
There are about 5 American flagged ATBs that are classified as true unlimited. Sorry if my first comment was confusing but that is what I meant by it.
Just curious, but could you mention which ATBs you believe are classified as unlimited. Some of the largest ATBs that come to mind are Crowley’s 750 Class ATBs. At a DWT of 48,000 LT these are ships in their own right, but the tug’s tonnage is under 1600t.
This subject has been discussed a number of times on this forum. A number of members of this forum say they got their unlimited licenses on ATBs. What @Capt_Phoenix cites is simply what is written in the CFR’s.
What are the names of these unlimited tonnage ATBs?
I’d like to look them up.
46 CFR 11.211(d) applies to all ATBs. The only way an ATB can be credited as “unlimited” tonnage is if the towing unit is over 1,600 GRT. Aggregate tonnage is irrelevant, except for the 50m percent of the total allowed by 46 CFR b11.211(d).
The liberty, legend, and legacy are a few. A 1600 GRT license is only needed to operate them but seatime accrued is considered unlimited because they are written up as “push mode” and not “dual mode”. I believe there are 2 on the lakes as well, would have to look up names.
For whatever reason the ABS and USCG feel that vessels considered to be in “push mode” cannot safely operate without being connected to their barge, pushing ahead. In other words they would not be able to tow.
The smaller 650 units on the other hand are written up as “dual mode” and the tonnage now because restricted based off the combined 50 percent rule.
Whether or not there is a CFR or NViC regarding any of this, the NMC sees is that way, and there was some kind of agreement made between Crowley and the USCG.
It is a possibility these seatime letters are being written up as “push mode” in hopes to infer and lead USCG evaluators into believing they are crediting ITB service. The only "push mode’ and “dual mode” references in the aforementioned CFR’s has to do with ITBs. There are no such mode references with regards to ATBs.
You could be absolutely correct and this may be the case but I know that this is the way it is currently, and somewhere/somehow there was an agreement made.
As far as my last response goes, I will say they may not be classified as unlimited( wrong use of words) but you would certainly receive unlimited time on them.
As @Chief_Seadog already mentioned, all ATBs are, by definition, “dual mode” so the only time that distinction is ever made in the CFR is in reference to ITBs.
That’s not to say what you described isn’t happening, just that it isn’t supposed to be happening.
(I know a guy who got 3rd mate unlimited oceans with only 20 years of stern towing time and without ever taking the celestial exam at the REC.)
It doesn’t matter. ATBs and ITBs are credited the same. See 46 CFR 11.211(d).
Of course. We all know damned well that no 2 people in the NMC are on the same page, but for now you will get unlimited time on those units. The rest of the units 50/50 chance.
Not about crediting ATBs. The “agreement” was recognition that certain of Crowley ATBs can be treated as tank ships for purposes of qualifying for a Tankerman-PIC endorsement that isn’t limited to tank barges. The list is here.
Yeah well they are doing it for tonnage purposes as well on the larger units. Don’t ask me how/why but they are. Don’t kill the messenger.
46 CFR 11.211(d)
Service on Articulated Tug Barges (ATBs) and Integrated Tug Barges (ITBs). Service on ATB or Dual Mode ITB units is creditable for an original deck officer endorsement or raise of grade of any deck officer endorsement. Service on an ATB or Dual Mode ITB with an aggregate tonnage of 1,600 GRT/3,000 GT or more is creditable on a two-for-one basis (2 days experience equals 1 day of creditable service) for up to 50 percent of the total service on vessels of 1,600 GRT/3,000 GT or more required for an unlimited officer endorsement. The remaining required service on vessels of more than 1,600 GRT/3,000 GT must be obtained on conventional vessels or Push Mode ITBs.
# 46 CFR § 10.107 - Definitions in subchapter B
Push-mode ITBs means those ITBs that involve a rigid coupling system and, when not coupled to the barge are incapable of conducting towing in any other configuration (such as astern or alongside) because, by themselves, they have very limited seakeeping capability. The propelling unit moves as one with the barge unit.
The Coast Guard recognizes that there are significant differences among the various vessel combinations covered by the ITB definition. For this reason, ITBs are divided into two groups: Pushing Mode ITBs and Dual Mode ITBs
Safety regulations and statutory requirements dependent on tonnage measurements are applicable to Pushing Mode ITBs as determined by the aggregate tonnage of the ITB combination…In other words Push Mode ITBs are pretty much treated regulatory wise as a single entity.
Yes, there are more than one kind of ITB. How does that apply to the reg I cited? Where does it say that different types of ITBs are credited differently?
I know I am just an engineer so I’ll phrase it this way…Does the 50 percent limitation of creditable service apply to Push Mode ITBs? The way I’m reading it, it does not.
Same. And I’m telling you “push mode” ATBs are a thing you just have to be part of a super exclusive club 