Unlimited Sea time on ATB?

I have a 3/M Unlimited Oceans. I have been working on a PUSH MODE ATB. Am I understanding the CFR’s correctly that I can obtain my unlimited 2/M serving on this vessel. We are always in Push Mode. Combined weight of over 6000. If so, even though I only work Near Coastal. Does my Oceans Endorsement stay on my license? I am having a hard time getting an answer from the USCG.

I’ve had a bunch of friends work ATB’s with AMO and never heard of a license issue.

I am, however, curious about the near coastal question as I’ve never seen anyone have a problem with this either. I even know of one hawsepiper who got his Master Unlimited license on a drillship and has never crossed any body of water larger than the Gulf Of Mexico. I’m not endorsing the idea, as I think at least one Ocean crossing is a valuable experience, but it does seem to be accepted by the USCG.

Once you have your Oceans endorsement it doesn’t go away.

I think I know who John is referring to. My question is how did he get [I]OCEANS[/I] in the first place? Does the CG not care that a person might make his very first transit overseas as a vessel’s master?

Doesn’t seem kosher to me.

Unless of course, you can’t pass the next set of exams…:eek:

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[quote=cmjeff;7387]I think I know who John is referring to. My question is how did he get [I]OCEANS[/I] in the first place? Does the CG not care that a person might make his very first transit overseas as a vessel’s master?

Doesn’t seem kosher to me.[/quote]

Actually, all you have to have is the desire to take the exam, and pass it.

Unlike vying for your MOTV, adding the Oceans endorsement on your AGT license only requires the desire to study for, and pass the Celestial Portion of the exams, and to have all your required Management Level STCW endorsements.

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Thanks for your feedback. If I qualify for the Second Mate Unliimited, can I take the 70 question supplemental 1600 ton master at any time or do I have to take it when I receive my Second Mate?

When I had taken AND PASSED all tests for 2nd Mate, They gave me the test for 1600 Master, I passed and then the license was issued with both qualifications on it. One thing that sticks in my mind is that on my copy of the 1600 test there were lots of questions about ice.

You are a fortunate man Jeff, having all that knowledge of ice must come in handy keeping those San Miguels cold …:slight_smile:

I’m looking for more information on the validity of obtaining unlimited time on ATBs, either from the CFRs or people who have experience with this issue. Can anyone point me in the right direction, so that I can get a definitive answer? If the upgrade from 3/M to 2/M is possible, then ATBs could be a good choice for me. I would appreciate any help or advice you could provide.

Tonnage Requirements http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2008/octqtr/pdf/46cfr10.402.pdf
Contrast of Dual Mode ITB to Push Mode ITB indicating how a Push Mode ITB is considered, read part D in its entirety - http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2008/octqtr/pdf/46cfr10.211.pdf
2nd Mate Requirements - http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2008/octqtr/pdf/46cfr10.406.pdf

^ Oh boy, we have company…

Sometimes it is like that when you sail on an ATB. I should know, I did it for years. Oh, sail on an ATB, that is.

You can take that 1600T Master supplement test after you receive your 2nd Mate Endorsement it doesnt have to be together. When I upgraded my 2nd Mate’s (new system) in 2006 all I had to have was a valid Flashing Light (with in 1 year). I had some free time a few months later and went down to Charleston and took my 1600T Master exam within the 12months of applying for my 2nd Mate upgrade and they let me sit the next week, as long as my Flashing Light was still within 1 year. That test was 70 questions, with everything for Nav Gen, Safety, Business and Stability. I also had to take Rules again cause I was outside of 1year from taking my previous rules.

SCGamecock, shoot me a PM, curious where your from in SC. Im a Cola native myself.

[I][quote=GJF1216;7378]I have a 3/M Unlimited Oceans. I have been working on a PUSH MODE ATB. Am I understanding the CFR’s correctly that I can obtain my unlimited 2/M serving on this vessel. We are always in Push Mode. Combined weight of over 6000. If so, even though I only work Near Coastal. Does my Oceans Endorsement stay on my license? I am having a hard time getting an answer from the USCG.[/quote][/I]

ATBs are considered the same as “dual-mode” ITBs under 46 CFR 11.211(d). Time can be used for up to 50% of the requirement for unlimited tonnage service, and is credited at one day of service credit for two days experience.

Note that “push-mode” does not refer to the type of towing operation the vessel is engaged in. It’s a design consideration. Generally, the tug unit of a push-mode ITB cannot operate independently of the barge unit. By this criteria, all ATBs are “dual-mode.” See NVIC 2-81 for additional information on the characteristics of push-mode and dual-mode.

[quote=jdcavo;20987]
ATBs are considered the same as “dual-mode” ITBs under 46 CFR 11.211(d). Time can be used for up to 50% of the requirement for unlimited tonnage service, and is credited at one day of service credit for two days experience.

Note that “push-mode” does not refer to the type of towing operation the vessel is engaged in. It’s a design consideration. Generally, the tug unit of a push-mode ITB cannot operate independently of the barge unit. By this criteria, all ATBs are “dual-mode.” See NVIC 2-81 for additional information on the characteristics of push-mode and dual-mode.[/quote]

I suppose one thing of interest here would be whether or not we are talking about an ATB or an ITB, or more importantly, is there a difference? NVIC 2-81 discusses the differences between a Push Mode ITB and a Dual Mode ITB. The term “ATB” does not appear in the NVIC. All I can offer on the difference between the two is terminology; ATB - Articulated Tug and Barge vs ITB - Integrated Tug and Barge. The finer details that differentiate the two is something I would have to look into.

Either way, if the vessel cannot operate independently of the barge unit, it doesn’t make sense to me that it would be able to tow the barge either. Which would mean it’s not a Dual Mode ITB. Per NVIC 2-81, “The Dual Mode ITB can operate in either the combined configuration or tow on a hawser.” Most of the vessels I see these days that are referred to as ATB’s, whether a correct term or not, don’t have a towing hawser.

There most certainly is a difference and as far as I know this is it. The ATB consists of 2 separate units. ie Tug and Barge, the latter having a “notch” in the stern into which the tug is fitted. This combination can and often is separated for various reasons on occasion, and the tug can actually “Tow” the Barge if needed. Example heavy seas, on a long tow. But more importantly it retains some flexibility in the coupling.

The ITB on the other hand is connected rigidly to the Barge, usually with a hydraulic coupling which essentially makes the 2 units into one rigid “Ship”. The term Integrated implies that neither unit can operate without the other.

Just found this which more or less says same thing. http://www.crowley.com/petroleum-chemical-transportation/atb-whatis.asp

[quote=Cal;21002]
Either way, if the vessel cannot operate independently of the barge unit, it doesn’t make sense to me that it would be able to tow the barge either. Which would mean it’s not a Dual Mode ITB. Per NVIC 2-81, “The Dual Mode ITB can operate in either the combined configuration or tow on a hawser.” Most of the vessels I see these days that are referred to as ATB’s, whether a correct term or not, don’t have a towing hawser.[/quote]

Most of the newer-built ATBs have the emergency tow hawser stowed on the barge connected to a pick-up line. Even if the tug has no towing machine, a bollard pull test has to be demonstrated for a towing certification.

Back to the origional question of unlimited time on ATBs. Several young engineers that I have worked with have had unanswered questions about upgrading on ATBs. It appears there is a similar path for deck and engine.

I’ve asked several people from the CG and MERPAC about this and as far as I can gleen, you can advance to 1st asst or Chief Mate on ATBs or large OSVs.

The jump to Unlimited Master or Chief Engineer, you have to show 1 year on vessels that require Chief Mate and 1st Asst on the COI.

This needs to be spelled out clearly for a path for all to follow. I believed Anchorman encountered this same “turd in the punch bowl”.

I’m glad I got mine less complicated times.

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the ATB i work on, even though it theoretically meets the definition of a “dual mode” unit, [it has bitts (no tow engine), tow certification w/ bollard pull test, has an (emergency) tow hawser (faked out on an upper deck not attached to anything), etc…] but the stern rises higher than the aft h-bitt, making conventional towing pretty much impossible and rigging the thing a nightmare. if rough sea conditions caused the pins to fail (c-series intercon rated to 23’), i don’t think anyone could stand on the back deck to rig it anyhow.

on ours, its readily acknowledged that if we ever actually had to use the emergency hawser in the event of a pin failure and managed to get it out safely, the BEST possible scenario would be to just keep the barge hove to and not drift while waiting for actual tugs to take it. in reality, no one ever expects the thing to actually be able to tow astern, despite what the CFR criteria it supposedly meets.

some atbs, like the bouchard units for instance, do indeed retain their tow machinery and conventional tug design along side the pin machinery, and do actually tow astern if need be. they also do their own in-house assist work. these are true “dual mode” units. the other “purpose built” ATBs with no lower house, no winch, dedicated to one barge or a handful of similar ones, that physically can’t do “harbor work”, and with stern h-bitts only thrown on as an afterthought to pass it as a towing vessel, are a far different story.

bottom line, these regs need to be looked at and revised; they don’t address the reality of the industry.