[QUOTE=z-drive;108882]Its just a shame to see someone who’s a “tugboat” captain need a pilot to dock/undock and do basic stuff. I don’t have any issue whatsover with taking a pilot because its good for everyone but have the balls to touch the throttles. The bigger issue is that the next generation isn’t/wont learn anything other than just let a pilot do it.[/QUOTE]
A friend of mine worked for a short while on one of the 750’s and they said that they came out of the notch once, with the barge tied up at the dock of course, and came alongside the barge or the dock or something and the skipper’s boat-handling skills were… saddening…
[QUOTE=z-drive;108882]Its just a shame to see someone who’s a “tugboat” captain need a pilot to dock/undock and do basic stuff. I don’t have any issue whatsover with taking a pilot because its good for everyone but have the balls to touch the throttles. The bigger issue is that the next generation isn’t/wont learn anything other than just let a pilot do it.[/QUOTE]
The last 24 years I sailed on tugs and ATBs were mostly with some outstanding captains. They did all of the manuvering but were required to take pilots with the large oil barges. The last 7 years on the ATBs, tugboat skills were visibly on the wane with the ATB company specific TOAR. I have heard of the LEGACY class tugs using an assist tug for docking light-tugboat.
[QUOTE=injunear;108888]The last 24 years I sailed on tugs and ATBs were mostly with some outstanding captains. They did all of the manuvering but were required to take pilots with the large oil barges. The last 7 years on the ATBs, tugboat skills were visibly on the wane with the ATB company specific TOAR. I have heard of the LEGACY class tugs using an assist tug for docking light-tugboat.[/QUOTE]
I can’t imagine that those 1567-ton behemoths are an absolute joy to handle light-boat but still, assist tugs? This industry gets more and more mixed up in itself each day.
Isn’t handling the light tug part of the goddamn TOAR?
hah you have got to be kidding me. We use an assist boat creatively on a very rare occasion to pin a boat alongside something to complete a complicated or hard-to reach makeup (like a small panama chock 15’ above the tugs deck) but that’s about it. I’d strip the whole deck crew of their license for using an assist boat light tug if i had such authori-tai.
what should be examined is why there are ATB’s in the first place and not ships and it is manning costs plain and simple…
an ATB has a lower manning scale than an equivalent sized ship and there is no requirement for UL tonnage licenses. How much a year is the differential is an interesting number to consider but let’s say for a starting point that it is $4000/day less to man an ATB vs. a ship, so over a year, it would be just shy of $1.5M! That’s a lot of profit for the owners, but the mariners work more with fewer men to do the same job.
Take away the manning benefits and ATB’s cease being built.
We had to do some work on the tug-to-barge gangway at the shipyard in Tampa. The barge was at marathon discharging. When we headed back to the barge to get back in the notch, apparently things were getting out of the captains hands and our young 3rd mate who had previously worked at bouchard literally pushed the Captain out of the way and took control of the situation, gently getting us back in the notch and pinned in lightering mode. Needless to say the Captain’s pride took a big hit. Most of the Captains came from ships which obviously is much different than a large tug. The Captains from the 650’s tend to do much better.
Other than sea trials, in the two years I was on the Legacy we never used an assist tug for docking light-tug when we came out of the notch. Also the tugs hardly if ever come out of the notch unless it is absolutely necessary. I rode the Legacy around from Long Beach to Pascagoula MS. That was not so fun. Those tugs ride rather crappy outside the notch. C.Captain is right, take away the manning advantage of ATB’s and ships will make a resurgence. The Legacy was a good boat with a good crew. I worked on it since it came out of the yard. Being the first of the class we had to work out a number of bugs and set the precedence for the rest of the 750’s. While a monstrosity and bastard as all of us ship guys working on her called it, we made it our own. The run is sweet, with a good crew, and 45/45 is a pretty kick ass schedule. Wish now I wouldn’t have given it up. [QUOTE=PaddyWest2012;108886]A friend of mine worked for a short while on one of the 750’s and they said that they came out of the notch once, with the barge tied up at the dock of course, and came alongside the barge or the dock or something and the skipper’s boat-handling skills were… saddening…[/QUOTE]
It really scares me that some of these AT/B’s are running around with No One in the Wheelhouse that has ever had to tow a barge never mind get out of the notch in an emergency. I have been on a couple of Intercon boats that had to break out of the notch in bad weather and trust me it’s no fun. Never mind having to get back in once the weather laid down a little.
One time we had the Second Mate mistakenly retract the pins rather than extend them. We were in 10-15 foot seas at the time. It took the Captain (in the Wheelhouse, who was one of the first Intercon Captains) and me (down in the Intercon Room) to get the pins pressed back up. The pins only pulled the pins in a couple of inches but it felt like we were riding on the worlds biggest slide hammer. It was so bad that my AE called me to the E.R, because he could not the Generators into parallel and he was panicking . When I got down there I saw the Main Switch Board moving and shaking so bad I almost could not hold on to the breaker to close it. I had one of the AB/T’s come up to me after we got the pins pressed back up and say thank you and that they were lucky that neither the Captain or me panicked, this was a big deal as the two of us had never got along up to that point. The Cook was later found on the Barge. He said he thought we were going to sink so he got off of the boat, nice guy.
The next couple of years are going to be interesting as more of the senior and experienced Captains and Mates retire.
These companies are manning with the UL Guys are playing with fire. Now I am not saying that UL guys can not do the job but some things you can only learn from doing it and as we all know there is no way that any company is going to risk it by allowing them to “Practice” getting in and more importantly get out of the notch while at sea. I am not sure what the answer is but they are going to have to find a way to train these new guys on what to do in case of emergency!
Only time will tell but I am pretty sure that these AT/B’s are here to stay.
When did being a good boat-handler lose its importance? I just don’t see how they can cut these guys lose on this big equipment without having a standard of skill across the board. Obviously there must be some with the skill, but what the hell. Up my way I don’t see too many ‘no boat handling mother-F^$#ers’ on ATBs, they are a rare exception. I look at ATB captains my way usually as guys who’s skill level i aspire to rival.
Same idea goes for the engine room…Why not have guys who have a license and can sit and watch the switchboard and guages, but bring in a tech to do daily maintenance? No…we don’t dare touch anything down here…Thats the mentality I see on these larger ATBs with all unlimited ship people who have never worked on a tug in the wheelhouse, is the engine room far behind? Or do they actually do their job? If you’re an unlimited person with nothing but unlimited experience you have no business running an ATB until you prove yourself with a 30-60k bbl barge and no assist boat/pilot.
Same probably goes for the mudboat guys, not that you’re allowed to, but if you can’t get under the hook and hold yourself there until a lift is away without breaking anything/killing someone then what the fuck? How can you go to sleep with someone like that babysitting the computers.
I can speak for the engine crew of the Legacy/750-1, that we took on all repairs and maintenance to be the best of our abilities. Granted we called in techs for certain things that were beyond the scope of our expertise. I can say we made sure we always made it to and from port safely. I would say it is a testament to having unlimited license engineers who are used to working without much shore support and fixing things on the fly. I worked with some great engineers on board that boat. Unlike most other Unlimited Chiefs the one that was on my rotation led the charge by turning wrenches and slinging parts right there with us. Something I will take with my in my career.
There’s been a lot of good discussion on this thread, it has all been very interesting and I have greatly enjoyed reading it. I can honestly say that my knowledge of the maritime industry is now thoroughly more enriched for having been able to participate in this conversation. Almost 100 posts since it’s inception I feel now is an appropriate time to pose this question: who was right?
Was it Capt. Jeff Cowan, who says that ATB’s are a dangerous legal loophole that are basically the result of untoward corporate influence and government negligence?
Or was it Robert P. Hill of Ocean Tug and Barge Engineering, who designed most of the ATB’s that are sailing around out there and insists that he put his every effort into making ATB’s the safest and most economical mode of coastal cargo transportation in the United States?
Hill, knows AT/B’s as he has been in on the design of most of the InterCon Equipped Tugs inculding the First Tug and Barge Converted. I had the pleasure (Joking) of sailing Chief on the First InterCon Boat, the Tug Intrepid for Maritrans. That boat had a lot of problems with little things like cracking the hull! The InterCon System was pieced together and not installed in one piece. I also sailed on the Tug Seafarer for close to 10 years. That boat was a dream compared to the Intrepid as her InterCon System was installed as a unit. In all of the years that I spent on InterCon Equipped vessels, I have seem seas over 30 feet in the GOM. Now I will never say that the ride was great but it was way more comfortable that being on the wire.
The biggest thing with the InterCon System is to make sure that it is grease properly. If it is you will be good to go for the trip.
I have limited time (2 years) on an intercon equipped AT/B. After seeing the inefficiencies of large AT/B’s first hand, I came to the conclusion that AT/B’s are great to a certain size around 185,000-220,000 bbl. Once you start scaling things up to the size of the current 750 class and OSG’s boats, other than the manning, the barge not needing some certifications, and the fact that the 750 class barges can pump cargo like a mofo, there is no real advantage. Compared to an equivalent 45-49,000 DWT 330,000 bbl product tanker (think Veteran and State class tankers), these large AT/B’s burn more fuel and travel 2-3 knots slower. Ships do require more people, and certifications, but that means more work can be done on board and the need for shore based support is minimized therefore improving on-hire time and moving more cargo in the long run. In the end, I think each vessel has its place in the fleet.
Well here is the ATB Freeport stuck in Tampa. According to the pilot sheet they were down on one engine. They’ve lost 2 days so far. I can’t speculate why they were down so long. However in the two years+ I have been working the harbor I have yet to see any of the OSG tankers missing time do to technical problems.
The 2 watch system needs to go the way of the Dodo bird. ATB’s / ships don’t matter when it’s 3 watch.
With all the STCW requirements, it’s impossible to maintain compliance under a 2 watch system.
[QUOTE=Tugted;109592]Wrong. Docking pilots do the docking & undocking on the 650’s that go in charleston.[/QUOTE]
That’s because they are over the tonnage requirement. Even the old notch barge NEW YORK was required to have a pilot. Docking pilots are only on the east coast.
Crowley is apparently going to start sending ATB’s to the LOOP terminal. The Mooring Masters are voicing their concerns about the coupling while on the mooring. I don’t have ATB time, can any of you that do address moving down the notch ladder as the barge is pumped off while at an offshore mooring? Thanks!
