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If OUTV was by definition under 200 (which it was), Wasn’t that in effect “setting OUTV at 200” ?

What loophole?

Although I certainly agree with the concept of requiring meaningful towing training and experience for tug officers (and have long advocated for that) as usual the USCG implementation of this has completely missed the mark.

OUTV was NOT under 200 Gt. It was under 300 Gt.

The loophole was they were issued a tonnage restriction in (parentheses) for near coastal or ocean route.

The guys running inland towing vessels were not subject to this 200,ton clause because the towing vessels are exempt from ‘Officers Competency Convention of 1936’ This OCC is what has driven our manning and complement regulations since 1936!

Only now is this being revisited as a result of the subhapter M towing vessel inspection program that is unfolding.

Probably because once past the boundary line you are required to have an inspected vessel license if over 200 grt and not just an outv or mtv. Cappy made it sound like all licenses for outside were restricted to less than 200 grt, probably for this reason.

[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;71424]Probably because once past the boundary line you are required to have an inspected vessel license if over 200 grt and not just an outv or mtv. Cappy made it sound like all licenses for outside were restricted to less than 200 grt, probably for this reason.[/QUOTE]

This is all ‘old news’ since they don’t give OUTVs anymore. Anyway, how it used to be was…

This gets really convoluted. An individual who had an OUTV Could operate UTVs up to 200 tons NC or Oceans. However, about ten years ago when renewing everyone was simply given a ‘Masters’ license of the appropriate tonnage. (Most likely 200) WITH either a Master or a Mate of Towing (MOTV) endorsement. A Towing vessel UNDER 300 tons could be operated by an individual with a 200 ton masters license! How? Because towing vessels on inland waters were not subject to the OCCA '36. However once the towing vessel went beyond the boundary line (over 200 tons) it became subject to OCCA’36. Thus the need for a 500 or 1600 ton license.

Now to muddy the waters a little more: the Officers Competency Act Of 1936 OCCA’36 actually applies to ALL seagoing vessels OVER 100 tons (when PAST the boundry lines) However in US code 8104d and 8104f,g,h it has exemptions for certain vessels. IIRC they are fishing vessels under XXX tons, barges, some other misc craft and… TUGBOATS on voyages less than 600 miles and less than 200 GT.

Holy shit is this confusing!!??

The previous paragraph is where the confusing “does my tug have to stand 4 and 8 or 6 and 6 on a voyage.” And related, do I get credit for 12 hour days.

The simple answer to this is: ANY towing vessel under 200GT on ANY voyage length can be two watches. (as long as it is domestic)
Any towing vessel over 200 less than 300 can be on a 6 and 6 watch. But over 600 miles over 200 GT must be 4 and 8 again if domestic.

If either vessel goes foreign, it must be 3 watches. Is that enforced? not usually. but possibly.

Now for the current licenses. They don’t give out an ‘unlimited’ OUTV any more. If you want to operate a vessel you must have the base license of the correct tonnage. Then throw on the MOTV endorsement if you want to operate tugs. This is why all the companies want 500 or 1600 ton minimum now. This way you can go on any boat they have, regardless of tonnage/

[QUOTE=tugsailor;71404]If OUTV was by definition under 200 (which it was), Wasn’t that in effect “setting OUTV at 200” ?

What loophole?

Although I certainly agree with the concept of requiring meaningful towing training and experience for tug officers (and have long advocated for that) as usual the USCG implementation of this has completely missed the mark.[/QUOTE]

Oh gheesh… don’t even get me started on the 30 day wonder thing… GRRRRRR

how about the 26’ thing…

WHERE IN THE HELL DID THAT COME INTO THE PICTURE?

[QUOTE=cappy208;71430]Now for the current licenses. They don’t give out an ‘unlimited’ OUTV any more. If you want to operate a vessel you must have the base license of the correct tonnage. Then throw on the MOTV endorsement if you want to operate tugs. This is why all the companies want 500 or 1600 ton minimum now. This way you can go on any boat they have, regardless of tonnage/[/QUOTE]
There never was an unlimited OUTV. The OUTV has always been 200 ton or less. The standard license for towing vessels and mudboats in the '60s and early '70s was the 300 ton uninspected master or mate. The next step up was the 1000 ton freight and towing. In the early '70s the M&O licenses came into being. The first I saw was a 300 ton and then raised to 500 ton. The 1600 ton licenses retired these licenses.The 100 ton was called “ocean operator of vessels less than 100 ton”. Engineers licenses followed a similar path. There was an uninspected chief and asst less than 300 ton vessels. Also an inspected Motor Towing Chief and asst license and then in the same evolution the M&O chiefs license.

Licensed engineers are required on vessels over 300 ton inland and 200 ton past the demarcation line.

[QUOTE=injunear;71434]There never was an unlimited OUTV. The OUTV has always been 200 ton or less. The standard license for towing vessels and mudboats in the '60s and early '70s was the 300 ton uninspected master or mate.[/QUOTE]
Not true. Prior to 1972 NO license was needed on OUTVs. When it was decided to license all the unlicensed operators, all the guys operating them just had to show service and were ‘grandfathered’ a license. It is incorrect that an OUTV was 'less than 200. It was an unwritten endorsement that most didn’t even know existed! Inland OUTV was unlimited (the caveat that under 300 was the upper limit of an UTV.

Licensed engineers are required on vessels over 300 ton inland and 200 ton past the demarcation line.

That is true. And confirms the difference between being under and over 200GT distinction.

I have tried to be brief about it, but here is an old explanation Towing vessel manning,

It is (was) very rare to find someone who ONLY had an OUTV with no tonnage restriction and NO other license for near coastal or oceans. I believe these were either erroneously issued or left overs from the ‘grandfathering’ of 1972.

I know someone who recently got a license as mate of towing inland, master of towing local waters. No 200 ton, not even a 500 ton, and no tonnage restriction.

[QUOTE=c.captain;71395]I oftened wondered about that…

so why the hell was the OUTV license set at 200tons?[/QUOTE]
Probably the result of the “streamlining” of licenses in the l;ate '80s (the same that resulted in Master Freight and Towing 1000 Tonbs going away and being replaced with Master 1600. It is likely to line up with the matre/master license structure where the increments were 200 GRT and 500 GRT.

[QUOTE=cappy208;71408]OUTV was NOT under 200 Gt. It was under 300 Gt.

The loophole was they were issued a tonnage restriction in (parentheses) for near coastal or ocean route.

The guys running inland towing vessels were not subject to this 200,ton clause because the towing vessels are exempt from ‘Officers Competency Convention of 1936’ [/QUOTE]

Exactly. The 300 GRT restriction on towing vesserl endorsements is only for N/C and oceans, there is no tonnage limit on inland and western rivers towing endorsements.

Interesting that inland riverboats are measured differently that all else. They literally pick them up with a crane and what they weigh is their tonnage. Displacement tonnage! Who would have thunk it? I have heard of guys with an OUTV running 500+ ton towboats on rivers.