Float,
It was a masterful display of airmanship supported by significant experience……..there is no putting a price on it.
From memory they shut down the runaway engine by flooding it with fire hoses.
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Would you have been so happy on AF 447 when FO Robert held the side stick full back after stalling at 30 K ft all the way into the ocean.
It took a considerable amount of time for the stalled plane to descend , time enough to rouse the Captain and he him to the flight deck .
All was needed was for him to push the side stick forward.
In fact there was a good chance of recovery if he had simply let it go.
Next?
What I first noticed when reading the Air India prelim report was the PIC had 3400 total time and 1128 in 787. Did this have any bearing on things? Don’t know but I was surprised at the low hours.
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In addition to the Quantas 32 example already quoted, other examples of “warm body at the front” saving planes include…
British Airways Flight 009 - Wikipedia
and…
Gimli Glider - Wikipedia
[although it must be said that the Gimli crew contributed to the problem in the first place]
The Gimli Glider was going to be my next one.
Ok then
KLM Vs Pan Am 747s Tenerife
Over
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I believe so. On many occasions, during my Pilotage tenure, I have noted significant power distance within a full Indian bridge team. There would have been a similar issue within this particular cockpit environment.
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244,
The birth of CRM which gravitated into BRM.
We are generally aligned in our discussions although on this issue…..we diverge.
There is absolutely no possibility that I would board an aircraft without at least two warm bodies up the front.
We speak of human factors and failings associated with incidents and accidents yet forget that during busy periods there are in excess of 40,000 operational commercial airliners traversing the globe. A comparison of aviation related fatalities as compared to global road trauma and fatalities is well defined.
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Nonsense. Read the official investigation reports before posting crap. The engine was not at takeoff power, it just couldn’t be reduced below flight idle because the control wiring was cut when #2 failed.
https://www.faa.gov/lessons_learned/transport_airplane/accidents/VH-OQA
The captain with 15,000 hours was PIC, he just happened to be pilot monitoring, not pilot flying. That did not make the FO PIC, the captain can and will take the controls whenever he or she feels it is necessary. It is routine for captain and first officer to alternate legs as pilot flying. It is how the FO gains experience.
Yes he was the pilot flying which he would do half the time but still doesn’t seem like a lot of hours. WAY back when I was flying 2000 hours was the minimum to be hired by one of the smaller airlines like Southern but most had more. So I was expecting a legacy carrier first officer to have more than 3000 hours. Guess times have changed or there is a pilot shortage
A former safety pilot from Lufthansa, German Airlines, used to give talks to audiences of medical doctors and hospital administrators on how to transfer risk management concepts from commercial airlines in industrial countries to the hospital setting (pivoting, amongst others, on such “alien” ideas as non-punitive incident reporting). He quipped “If commercial airlines had adverse incident rates comparable to medical intensive care wards, Lufthansa would lose two aircraft a day, which it does not!” 
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The hiring at foreign airlines is a whole different world than in the US. Way back when you had to have a type rating plus 3 shuttle landings to get a seat on a major airline the Europeans started a zero to hero, ab initio system where a young person would be hired and trained from zero hours. Almost all of the training was done in simulators and light aircraft then move into an air transport cockpit with only around 250 hours. As incredible as that sounds, those 250 flight hours are backed by more than a thousand hours of intensive simulator and classroom training. Our old-school system used to produce the best stick and rudder pilots in the world but it took a few thousand hours of airborne grunt work to get a seat. It is easy to make an argument for and against the European method. I got my seat by flying night freight over the Rockies single pilot in round engine beasts in all kinds of weather and am proud of it but can’t say the Euros are wrong. Our mix of techniques leaves a lot to be desired because, in my opinion, it doesn’t provide the “real world” experience that blue collar aviation did. Flying around the patch all day flight instructing isn’t really challenging enough to count and there isn’t much academic time to back it up. Aeronautical hawespiping used to work but years ago it got to the point where if you had enough money to get the time you didn’t need the job.
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Sad
But true
no I cant be bothered to read it to make some dribble post to say “nonsense” it was 33.5% and not 34% which had no bearing on my post whatsoever
You have caught the bugge disease
Unfortunately it is the demise of the "stick and rudder " pilots that pushes me towards my rather controversial views on unmanned flight.
I know it will not happen in my lifetime as Joe Public still want a warm body at the sharp end.
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It has happened to a degree in our marine world as well.
There has been concern that with the almost universal adoption of DP vessels, certainly in the North Sea, that there has been a loss of stick time or as we used to term it " Driving" skills.
This combined with the complexity of these vessels has led to accidents.
Some vessels are actually set up so a single warm body cannot physically reach the controls to operate the vessel manually.
Been trying to find a reference and the best I can do Is www.shipsandoil.co.uk
Run by the rather excellent Victor Gibson
Mary Schiavo chimes in:
Again, we need to be cautious until we learn just exactly what it is that the data recorder records: A sensor on the actual switches, or a signal down the line somewhere? And if it is the latter, what if anything is between the switch and the point at which the signal is captured?
Earl
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Earl,
Interesting article.
When the CR captured the challenge between the Pilots would it be fair to assume that the Pilot raising the question became aware of the issue by noticing the fuel switches were in the “cutoff” position?
Good question. I just don’t know, and without a schematic I’m hesitant to guess. Does activating the cutoff cause an acknowledgment in some display or is the only way to know the switch has been thrown is look at the switch? And were the switches reset, cycled, or just left alone as the pilots struggled with the situation? Lots of variables to consider.
Earl
One would also assume that activation of the cutoff switches would produce two results.
- Master warning alarm
- Digital indication of engine failure.
As you quite rightly say…….many intangibles.
Edit: Just researched this.
“ No, fuel cutoff switches on a Boeing 787 do not directly trigger a master alarm. While these switches, located behind the throttle levers, are crucial for engine control (starting, shutting down, or in emergencies), they are not designed to activate a master warning. If inadvertently moved, they can cause an engine shutdown, but this would be a separate event from triggering a general master alarm, according to aviation experts.”