Unions, Jones Act and Protectionism

I’ll read anything & everything with no problems. Believing what I read is where I have a hard time.

Happy & prosperous New Years to you as well! I’m 6,200 miles from home but plan to enjoy it the best I can.

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Yeah that’s a ways alright, have a safe hitch and return.

How did thread on the Jones Act and Unions morph into an us-v-them over trump?
Politicians of either party will work for us when they fear us, and at the moment we are too small and dispersed to have much of an effect (though hats off to those plos who support us anyway)
If each of us put half as much effort into educating the public as we do bashing each other over petty political differences we would have a chance of making some headway, but instead we’ll keep fighting the “Bud V Miller” wars while the Kochs and the Bezoses keep our wages down and send our jobs overseas.

Happy Holidays, if you find me in a Seattle bar I’ll buy you a drink

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That was never what this thread is about though.

Isn’t the title of the thread; Unions, Jones Act and Protectionism?

Yes but it was split off another thread and that title is just what was given to it by the mod that split it.

https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/will-these-2-ships-be-u-s-flagged/14777/6

OK whatever, forget the first sentence of my reply, everything that follows is still valid

As an outsider looking in from a country that imposes no extra tariffs on imports and offers no subsidies to our farmers or shipping what is the cost of a pipeline to the North East with all the legal costs compared with building your own LNG ships to do it?

Environmentalists and liberal politicians, including the Attorney Generals of several states, have obstructed the building new pipelines with court challenges. The cost of building pipelines is not the issue.

I am neither a liberal nor an environmentalist but these pipe line companies need to up their game When these pipe line companies start building pipe lines properly perhaps the people under whose lands they lay will not object. Pipe line companies don’t have the best record after construction is finished. They build cheap; hire cheap welders, don’t inspect properly, don’t back-fill properly and cut down on expansion joints all in the name of doing it cheap. They leak shortly after construction which makes the entire business look bad. The records of pipe line leaks are there for any one that’s interested. Keystone XL is one small example.
Yes we need pipe lines but we need them built well.

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They have the best record for the amount of product transferred to pollution. The protesters have generated more pollution than the leaks…

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90% of the oil that finds its way into the sea comes from where?

effin’ CARS

I am an environmentalist, but with commonsense and a facts based outlook.

The pollution risk of a natural gas pipeline in the Northeast is trivial. The pseudo-evironmentalists objections to pipelines are entirely misplaced.

Unless, as a few smart environmentalists will admit, their problem with pipelines, is not the pipeline itself, it’s that pipelines “enable” FRACKING! Also, natural gas is “too cheap“ and just clean enough to discourage and delay the construction of their holy grail of green solar and wind energy.

Of course, I am in favor of Jones Act transport of natural gas.

And in favor of offshore wind, but only if it’s 100 percent a Jones Act American show. I’m not in favor of any foreign built offshore wind.

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Unless the tariffs lead to concessions on the part of the PRC and they see that the old trading model they have enjoyed will no longer be entirely tolerated along with not tolerating their intellectual property theft. They will probably concede on several issues since the self deprivating Europeans will still hand them everything they want including all necessary proprietary technology.

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Retaliation for unfair trade by our trading partners is essential. China, and others, have gotten away with far too much for too long. A return to balanced trade must be accomplished. In the short term there will be some painful side effects, but in the long run it will be to our great advantage.

Tariffs are only one tool for balancing trade. Non-tariff barriers for unfair trade are also essential.

For a good start, Chinese imports should be required to enter the US a only at Guam, American can Samoa, Hawaii and Alaska. American ships and aircraft can handle it from there. Yes, this will result in a small increase in the consumer price of Chinese goods, but so what? It’s well worth it, and will create US jobs.

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Or just extend the Jones Act to require say 15% of imports to the U.S. be carried on U.S. Flag bottoms, raising to say 20% by 2030

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Guys, these are some nice fantasies but that is all they are. I don’t know if you guys read comments 1-37 but there’s been over a half dozens American workers who have benifitted their whole careers from protectionism laws like the Jones Act who are adamantly opposed to any tariffs & other protectionism laws similar to the Jones Act for US steel workers, appliance manufacturers & solar panel manufacturers. If people who benifit from protectionism laws are against protectionism policies how do you think the rest of the population feels? We are in the race to the bottom here & American seamen & other middle-class workers are the least of our concerns. The Jones Act is a dead man walking, enjoy it while it lasts. The phrases, “Made in America” & “Put Americans First” are considered xenophobic & racist terms anyways. Let’s just put every unemployed person on the federal payroll like presidential candidates Bernie Sanders & Andrew Yang proposes making the US taxpayers foot the bill & be done with it. We won’t have to worry about the 40 year old trade war once we have nothing to trade. We can just consume indefinitely without consequence then? Nobody wants tariffs or to fight Wall Street/China. Screw fighting back in a trade war.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2019-06-27/-1-000-a-month-for-everyone-is-democrat-outsider-yang-s-big-idea

Balanced fair trade is essential to the national economy. Unfair trade with huge trade deficits is bad economics and unsustainable

Tariffs are a necessary tool to balance trade, but they are not the only tool. Most countries also use a variety of non tariff barriers to control trade.

Additionally, there are non trade foreign policy and national security concerns that can be addressed through trade barriers.

Are we serious about denuclearization in North Korea and Iran? If so, first, permanently ban ships that trade with North Korea or Iran from entering US ports. Next, ban the owners and managers of those ships from sending any ship to US ports. If that’s not enough, ban all ships from any flag state that allows its ships to trade with North Korea or Iran from entering US ports.

There are many non military tools to achieve foreign policy, security and trade objectives.

True, but when the USA cannot supply its own citizens with goods at a competitive price Joe and Jane buy from their local Walmart goods produced overseas. Should tariffs be enforced on these goods they buy from overseas Joe and Jane will see have to pay more. Since Joe and Jane are not likely to get a increase in pay to make up for the difference in price they will be upset. Of course if the goods started to become manufactured in the USA that would mean more jobs but since US workers make more than Indonesian, Chinese, or Vietnamese workers that would cut into the profits of the multnational corporation so they would have to increase the price which will still hurt Joe and Jane. So, if one levies tariffs on goods coming into the USA which will cause prices to go up one must increase wages for US citizens or else there will be a revolt. In practical terms there is no putting this genie back into the bottle. The best you can hope for is trade agreements demanding that the importing companies abide by the same regulations US companies abide by. However, since many importing companies are owned by US corporations that is not likely to happen. If you have an iPhone you own one of the best examples of a US corporation shipping US knowledge and manufacturing overseas while hiding their immense profits from US taxes while still claiming to be a US corporation. Put a tariff on the importation of iPhones and see how that works out

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The US unemployment rate decreased to 3.5 percent in November 2019 from 3.6 percent in the previous month while markets had expected it to be unchanged at 3.6 percent. The number matched the September figure which was the lowest since 1969.

There is a lot of complaining in this thread that loss of manufacturing in the US has led to a loss of middle class jobs. In actuality, if the unemployment numbers are to be believed, the global economy has just reoriented some of the unskilled opportunities that used to exist in the US to other lower wage countries. The trade imbalance is not a good thing, but I don’t think it is causing a lack of opportunities to earn a living in the US. It just makes some opportunities better than others.

Who is going to carry cargo to/from the the US if you do?
How long can the US sustain such a policy before the economy collapses entirely?
You can sustain an economy as big as that of the US on domestic trade and services for a while, but not for very long. Cutting each others hair and flipping burgers is not enough.
If you cannot export your agricultural product, oil and gas etc., or import goods to sell in your shops, the economy will come to a grinding halt before you can build the ships to take over the task of transporting US import and export that you depend on, whether you like it or not.

Living in ignorant bliss of all the treaties and international agreements that govern trade and shipping (many of which US has instigated and signed but not ratified, but yet has to comply with) may be fun when you are arguing in a forum but not so fun when reality hits on your pocketbook and jobs.

Maybe a bit of realism are in place? Economic and Military might doesn’t mean you are immune to reality.

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