The Jones Act, again

[Lee_Shore]

Score a point for the home team and thank reps. Peter DeFazio (D-Ore.) and Sam Graves (R-Mo.)

House Transportation Leaders Oppose Jones Act Waiver

[ombugge]

We should not risk the jobs of those U.S. workers who move 99 percent of U.S. overseas trade and 100% of our coastwise trade,” added the lawmakers,

“99% of overseas trade is moved by US workers” (??)

What is all this about "FOC ships stealing US cargo and US mariner’s job going to “3rd world villagers”?

[Lee_Shore]

@ombugge

What is all this about "FOC ships stealing US cargo and US mariner’s job going to “3rd world villagers”?

It’s impolite to tell lies. Stick to the facts.

@ombugge

99% of overseas trade is moved by US workers” (??)

Nobody’s perfect but it doesn’t matter. I’m for anything that gets Jones Act in the public consciousness. Mariners as a lobby don’t have a huge voice. The more the Jones Act gets in the news, the more it is exposed to the public and the more it will be understood. No sane working man once he understands it, will go along with killing it.
Without ground support, it’s just a football being batted around by bought politicians until they get it into the end zone. Then say hi to Youssef Nosehair and Lee Hung Lo, your new bosses.

[Miek]

@ombugge

“99% of overseas trade is moved by US workers” (??)

What is all this about "FOC ships stealing US cargo and US mariner’s job going to “3rd world villagers”?

And your country does not have sabotage laws? Anybody can come in and transport anything they like whenever they like? Sure

[ombugge]

@Miek

And your country does not have sabotage laws?

If you by “Your country” mean Norway, there is no maritime cabotage law:in Norway.

There are NO restriction on nationality of ships that can participate in coastal trade, or in activities on the Norwegian Self.
Crew members from outside EU/EEA working on such ship have to have valid Norwegian or EU work permits however.
If serving on passenger ships and ferries operating in Norway there are also a requirement to speak Norwegian (for safety reasons)

There are some restriction on NIS registered ships, which is not allowed in coastal trade, but the restrictions for offshore vessels have been eased:

Norway Relaxes Cabotage Rules

PS> There are of course also strict requirement to qualifications per STCW for anybody serving on ships in Norwegian waters, or on Norwegian flag ships (NOR or NIS) anywhere.

[portofdc]

I found it interesting that Norway effectively doesn’t have maritime cabotage. Also, neither does the UK, and if my memory is correct, they are the ones who started this whole thing back around 1381 in the reign of Richard III. It is much more common than not across the world.

[ombugge]

@portofdc

It is much more common than not across the world.

Cabotage laws yes. But only about flag and crew, not all the rest that is included in the Jones Act.
Protection for national shipbuilding and seafarers is not cabotage.

[portofdc]

There is no single definition of cabotage that is accepted as binding on all states under international law. Regional and national definitions vary widely. Most do include protection for seafarers to some extent (nationality and wage minimums are most prevalent). I can’t speak to any other countries other than the U.S. that include national shipbuilding requirements. However, I can’t understand how the U.S. choosing to enforce this as a policy makes any difference to you in the least.

[ombugge]

@portofdc

(nationality and wage minimums are most prevalent

Nationality yes. Crew wages and other conditions of service is usually a matter of agreement between the union(s) and the shipowners/managers organization.

@portofdc

However, I can’t understand how the U.S. choosing to enforce this as a policy makes any difference to you in the least.

It doesn’t affect me in the least, but I have an interest and opinion about a lot of things that doesn’t.

I notice that other on here also have interest in (and opinions about) things that may not involve them, or the country they are citizen of (or live in)

That is good, in my opinion. To have too narrow interests, or to be too narrow minded, is NOT good. (In my opinion)

[johnny.dollar]

@ombugge

Cabotage laws yes. But only about flag and crew, not all the rest that is included in the Jones Act.
Protection for national shipbuilding and seafarers is not cabotage.

Imagine if US airlines were required to only use US built airplanes…

[Capt_Phoenix]

@ombugge

There are restriction on nationality of ships that can participate in coastal trade, or in activities on the Norwegian Self.
…
There are some restriction on NIS registered ships, which is not allowed in coastal trade

That’s cabotage. By the way, the source you linked confirmed Norway has cabotage laws.

[ombugge]

That should read “NO restrictions” (now corrected)
.
Lots of the ships engaged in coastal trade are flagged, owned and operated in the Faeroys and Iceland. (EU/EEA members)

Many of the Norwegian owned and operated ships in coastal and near-coastal trade, fly FOC flags (Cook Island, B&A etc.)

Many Norwegian owned offshore construction vessels used IOM, Gib, or Malta flag, (All part of EU) but has now been flagged back to Norwegian flag (NIS).

[Capt_Phoenix]

Then why does the article you linked say that Norway has cabotage laws?

[Miek]

@ombugge

There are NO restriction on nationality of ships that can participate in coastal trade, or in activities on the Norwegian Self.
Crew members from outside EU/EEA working on such ship have to have valid Norwegian or EU work permits however.
If serving on passenger ships and ferries operating in Norway there are also a requirement to speak Norwegian (for safety reasons)

There are some restriction on NIS registered ships, which is not allowed in coastal trade, but the restrictions for offshore vessels have been eased:

So those are not cabotage laws i’m confused

@ombugge

PS> There are of course also strict requirement to qualifications per STCW for anybody serving on ships in Norwegian waters, or on Norwegian flag ships (NOR or NIS) anywhere.

I think STCW is universally enforced everywhere. You may be confused by the national part or a united states license it’s only good to three miles it’s a inland national license

[portofdc]

@johnny.dollar

Imagine if US airlines were required to only use US built airplanes

They effectively were until the 1980’s. American built were the only ones flying until Eastern placed the first order for Airbus in 1978.

[ombugge]

cabotage rules for the Norwegian International Ship Register governing foreign short sea shipping, foreign-going ferries and the Norwegian Continental Shelf. “Relaxing cabotage rules will open the door to more ships under the Norwegian flag. This will contribute to strengthening Norway’s position and influence internationally,” Henriksen maintains.

Cabotage laws as applied to ships under NIS, not foreign flag.

For coastal traffic there are no other cabotage laws as of this moment:
https://www.toi.no/SAFT/ENG/

[Lee_Shore]

No harm done to the labor market for air crews by allowing foreign built aircraft. No reason to expect that tweaking the Jones act to allow US flagging of foreign built ships would harm US mariners.

[Miek]

@Lee_Shore

US flagging of foreign built ships would harm US mariners.

Agreed, The construction previsions are for shipyards and national defense.

[DavidMT]

There are foreign built U.S. Flag ships, look at the U.S. Flag ships ant APL or Maersk, the U.S. built requirement is only for ship’s in domestic trade.

[portofdc]

@Lee_Shore

No reason to expect that tweaking the Jones act to allow US flagging of foreign built ships would harm US mariners.

Absolutely not. If anything, removing US build requirements for Jones Act shipping would help US mariners. Anything that lowers the cost differential between other modes of domestic shipping would be good for mariners. Probably not so good for US shipbuilders, though.