As a retired mariner and retired army with one tour in the zone I can’t see how the definition “veteran” can apply to merchant mariner. I’ve read much of the murmansk run and other endeavors and while as arduous or more so than many navy ventures I think those left should just quietly receive some compensation but as for actual military honors/rewards I think that’s a stretch.
then again, think of the slam to those who’ve passed while rewarding the few left standing. but then the military does it all the time … agent orange etc.
2 Likes
Bad comment. Revised
Revised
The prevalent attitudes presented here just serve to reinforce that the military has held a long disdain and contempt for our U.S. Merchant Mariners. Let’s explore a few things here- specific to WWII U.S. Merchant Mariners;
Their vessels were more often than not subject to attack by hostile forces while in a declared war. The vessels carried USN Armed Guard personnel- the WWII Merchant Mariners in fact FOUGHT alongside of the USN personnel during combat conditions. Those Merchant Mariners lived, fought, were wounded and sometimes perished just the same as the USN Armed Guard personnel. At the cessation of hostilities- those mariners received NOTHING. The armed guard personnel received low-cost housing loans, medical benefits for life, educational assistance and a score of other benefits under the GI Bill. The mariners were afforded free health care at the USPHS Hospitals- but even that ended in 1982.
The U.S. Military has long harbored ill will to the U.S. Merchant Service, primarily rooted around falsehoods regarding War Bonuses and Draft Status. Believe it or not- the pay scales for non-officer WW2 mariners were pretty damn close to that of the enlisted armed services… The mariner casualty and fatality rates amongst the highest of any service in even the international landscape.
I have had two immediate family members who were severely injured during their service as WW2 Merchant Mariners- and I therefore take exception to some of these comments. Further- let me ask a few questions- Were you aboard a ship that were subjected to attack? Where a SCUD or another munitions flew either low and close overhead- or landed within 500’ of your vessel? All this as a civilian? I have.
This pervasive negative attitude toward U.S. Merchant Mariners who serve in peacetime as well as wartime is plainly stated- reprehensible. Given the current military climate of granting most anyone a percentage of disability at separation for things that are non-combat occupationally related injury- in itself is proof that ANY U.S. Merchant Mariner severely injured in a combat action, even while serving in a civilian capacity should find some benefits afforded to them…
3 Likes
Edited
1 Like
Furthermore, let’s discuss the attacks, casualties and fatalities aboard U.S. Flag vessels (both Civil Service as well as Commercial Vessels) during the Vietnam War- vessels that were subjected to mines, RPG’s and other direct attacks- which resulted in sinkings, explosions and etc.- these U.S. Merchant Mariners weren’t afforded any of the benefits which the servicemen enjoyed- even the REM’s… Unsatisfactory in my mind.
Wrong. Woefully wrong. U.S. Merchant Mariners injured, killed or maimed are COMPLETELY outside of the DOL (and OSHA for that matter) realm of jurisdiction- do your homework more thoroughly.
MANY of my immediate family- in fact at least one in every conflict since WW2 have answered our Nation’s call to duty as U.S. Merchant Mariners- Except for two WW2 Merchant Mariners, NONE have desired this. I state this; if we are wounded or perish during a direct combat action while serving aboard a U.S. Flag Merchant Vessel there should be some form of benefits…
Ok Jar-head, use your big brain instead of your Semper Fi one. . .The illogic of comparing USMC battles to “service” losses is beyond comprehension… Did you know that more USN Sailors were lost in the TOTAL battle for Guadalcanal than USMC? No, because you’ve not considered anything but USMC. WW2 mariners knowing went out into the N Atlantic wolf-packs without any ASW weapons. They had to rely on escorting vessels. Semper Fi, jar-head!! [thank you for your service, irrespective of your lousy argument.-From a Viet Nam vet who was also a USMM]
Hey Jar-head, read this: U.S. Merchant Marine in Vietnam
Not only were the USMM’s subjected to hostile-fire, they were subject to the UCMJ! !
Semper Fi Marine
1 Like
I’m not advocating one way or the other here, but perhaps some clarification:
Yes we (merchant mariners) did. As of 2006, the UCMJ was amended to have jurisdiction over civilians when serving with or accompanying US Armed Forces in the field in times of declared war or contingency operation.
It wasn’t until the early 2000’s that MSC had transitioned from fully Navy Sailors to fully Merchant Mariners. Which means that thereafter, the civilian mariners were/are performing the exact same duties as the navy sailors were, same exact ships, same exact routes, same cargo, same hazards. They sleep in the same bunks, stop in the same ports, and operate in the same contested waters. Just for way cheaper.
The only difference is when the navy moved off, they took their defensive CIWS weapons with them, leaving the civilians with shotguns and 9mm handguns.
1 Like
I am a proud Merchant mariner. Dont think we should get benefits like the armed forces, but i am subject to call up, i voluntarily signed, in the event of a sealift need. But having the government recognize the National Value of the Merchant Marine and work on a way to build in government sponsored training would not hurt my feelings.
2 Likes
As a current mariner and a former soldier who also worked for the VA in an earlier life, my gut reaction is that there is a profound difference in kind between uniformed military service and civilian, maritime employment. This difference is highlighted by the applicability of UCMJ, the nature of an enlistment contract, the complete lack of agency in accepting/rejecting assignments/deployments as a service member, the potential for severe physical and moral injury as a combatant, and more.
I have never sailed for MSC, but I just skimmed through the employee handbook, and I see that civmars are afforded some privileges associated with uniformed service, notably the use of the px/base exchange/commissary in some places.
What I cannot find is any reference to civilian mariners receiving hostile fire/imminent danger pay. That probably should be awarded just as it is for other federal employees, such as the foreign service (25%-35% depending on posting), possibly on the same basis as USN personnel transiting the same waters.
My initial reaction to the veteran status question is that mariners who participated in the Battle of the Atlantic from 1939-1945 certainly should have received veteran status identical to that of the Navy sailors escorting them. They were not simply in an imminent danger area, they were the specific targets. That may well be true of some Korean War and Vietnam War-era mariners as well.
I’m much less convinced about mariners who made a trip or two through the Persian Gulf at some point during the GWOT, even if they happened to see a SCUD fly past.
Sailing commercially is hazardous, but so is commercial fishing, mining, logging, and firefighting.
In my view, citizens, through the federal government, have a special duty to military veterans, to make them as nearly whole as possible in return for a near complete surrender of free will and agency and, sometimes, personal safety, as tools of national and foreign policy.
3 Likes
Wow give you a couple years and you have a sudden complete change in opinion and demeanor. You ok over there, did some mariner sleep with your gf or something?
4 Likes
This is a figure that’s pretty commonly thrown around regarding WWII history.
There were 243,000 mariners that served in the war. And 9,521 perished while serving—a higher proportion of those killed than any other branch of the US military. Roughly four percent of those who served were killed, a higher casualty rate than that of any of the American military services during World War II.
Although when I do the math it comes out that the Marines had the highest fatality rate by half a percent, not sure how accurate the numbers are, or if they lumped the Marines with the Navy, bringing the Navy’s Fatality rate to 2.62%
| In Service | Killed | Fatality Rate | |
|---|---|---|---|
| Army | 8,267,958.00 | 318,274.00 | 3.85% |
| Navy | 3,380,817.00 | 62,614.00 | 1.85% |
| Marines | 474,680.00 | 24,511.00 | 5.16% |
| Coast Guard | 85,783.00 | 1,917.00 | 2.23% |
| Merchant Marine | 243,000.00 | 11,342.00 | 4.67% |
But again, I don’t think anyone thinks a captain who has been running between Houston and Tampa for the last 20 years should get VA benefits. But the folks getting hunted in WWII should (and did) get veteran status.
That’s really all besides the point, what I’m more concerned about is a Marine who hasn’t posted in 8 years resurfacing on a thread that hadn’t been commented on in a couple years, on memorial day weekend. I just want to reiterate that no one here is trying to discredit what you may have gone though. If coming on this forum and barking is how you need to work though stuff, by all means carry on. But if you’re working though stuff and you’re considering taking more permanent solution this weekend, there are people you can talk to. I am personally not qualified, however the folks on the other end of this telephone number are: 1-800-273-8255 or dial 988 and press 1. You can also text 838255 or chat with someone online.
There is no shame in asking for help, we all have times we need to call the captain as per standing orders no matter how long we’ve been sailing.
6 Likes
I think there was about 5000 USN personnel killed and about 1100 USMC died in the battle for the Solomon Islands.
As far as British and Commonwealth merchant mariners were concerned in WW2 you were under 2 year article’s so you could only sign off earlier in your home port in which case you would have been conscripted.
A friend who lost his father when his ship was torpedoed had his iindentures paid by a charity to go to sea. His father’s pay stopped the day the ship was torpedoed leaving the family destitute .
US submarine service lost 21.9% of its total complement of 16,000 in WWII. All the other combatants with submarines lost a higher percentage.
3 Likes
For a little context here are a couple of links. My father was a WW II merchant mariner and never got any benefits. He also never complained but did on occasion remind us that a politicians promise means nothing unless it is signed into law. Belatedly a medal was made available for those mariners thanks in no small part of the proprietor of this forum. Though most are dead now their families appreciate that small recognition finally being awarded.
1 Like
What used to anger me most was that despite the contribution they made to the war effort (the allies absolutely could not and would not have won without them) they had their reputation smeared before it even ended by scumbags like Walter Winchell.
Luckily, his remarks didn’t gain much traction and he got his in the end.
And to the crayon eater above who keeps referring to them as marines… are you completely clueless or what?
2 Likes
Ya i was kind of rude here and for that i do aplogize. I should not said kick rocks and get a haircut. Ill leave subject matter alone. I got carried away. Have a nice Memorial Day. Again. Sincerest apologies.
1 Like