Tell you what, go out to Bentonville AR and tell Wal Mart you are going to take two weeks longer and 1000 dollars more to move boxes in a environmentally friendly way. See how much cargo you lift. Besides, Vessel China to USWC or Canadian port transfer to rail on dock unload inland rail yard then short run truck to the warehouse is about as green as you can move anything. Shortest distances ocean and inland as well as fuel efficient methods. Road transport of containers in the US is limited to near port destinations, majority of container freight moves inland via Rail.
[QUOTE=Boats3;194121]Tell you what, go out to Bentonville AR and tell Wal Mart you are going to take two weeks longer and 1000 dollars more to move boxes in a environmentally friendly way. See how much cargo you lift. Besides, Vessel China to USWC or Canadian port transfer to rail on dock unload inland rail yard then short run truck to the warehouse is about as green as you can move anything. Shortest distances ocean and inland as well as fuel efficient methods. Road transport of containers in the US is limited to near port destinations, majority of container freight moves inland via Rail.
Boats3[/QUOTE]
Yes I donât doubt that you are right, since the US doesnât give a damn about anything but $$$.
Questions re: the environmentally friendliness of railway transport:
How is the locomotive(s) powered, diesel or electric?
If electric; how is the power generated, Coal, gas or renewables?
Admittedly rail is less pollutive than road transport, even if diesel powered, but far less so than sea transport in terms of ton/miles.
The rest of the world is trying to clean up their act to save the planet, which also includes the US, while the Americans are the most polluting per capita on that same planet and may even become more so with the change of Government.
Conclusion: Short sea shipping is good for the environment, good for marinerâs job prospects and good for maritime business prospect. Not good for Wal-Mart maybe.
Rail transport in the US is a much better system then in Europe. We donât have the diversity in systems and infrastructure that you have. It is slightly less efficient then short sea shipping should be but you have to remember that all the rail infrastructure already exists for the most part. Itâs the fixed cost infrastructure that would be the biggest contributor for both modes. As for the efficiency, or environmental friendliness, the same GE engines that are being put on trains are being put on tugs, with ever increasing strict EPA regulations. Iâd love short sea shipping to take hold, but unlike other markets, US operators face too much competition from other modes of transport, all with their own interested parties, that other markets donât face.
Will let your $$$ comment pass in deference to Norway. I worked for a Norwegian owner 20 plus years and have visited often. Itâs a wonderful place. Few Europeans or Scandinavians have any understanding of American infrastructure. Scale of our inland operation very different than Europe. Most are familiar with ports few know anything about the broader supply chain.
One of the things I am involved with for a Asian Owner is carbon emission per ton mile. First Factor is mode of transport, next mileage. Real determining factor is utilization. Some ships move 2500 laden 40s others 5000 emission per ton moved dramatically different. Same with inland US. Rail diesel powered burns X amount of fuel per unit train X number of containers moved . I have never calculated consumption on North bound tows from New Orleans I have seen boats pushing hard against the current. I canât believe itâs fuel efficient per container moved.
Point of my Origional reply, local governments in the US are clamoring for money to improve infrastructure âto be ready for big shipsâ. Fact is big container ships are not going to call every port and overall opportunity for service providers, pilots tugs longshoremen everybody involved is going to see reduced opportunity . Winners will be big box stores and a few surviving mega ship owners.
True, there are problem with different rail system in Europe at the moment.
In mainland Europe the track gauge is already of same standard, except in the former Soviet states and in Spain/Portugal, but the problem is different power standards (Trains in Europe are largely electrified) and most of all the signalling systems being different. The High Speed rail network now being rapidly developed will have a common European standard, however: Rail transport in Europe - Wikipedia
In Europe the main Container Ports are served by a mixture of Rail, Road, River and Short Sea services.
Many of the Short Sea vessels are also able to use the navigable rivers and canals.
Using Sea/River ships enable the same vessels to operate in open waters and on rivers/canals, rather than ârafts of bargesâ being push by a single tug. This reduce the problems on fast flowing rivers and eliminating the need for transhipment for containers destined to inland ports.
Fact is big container ships are not going to call every port and overall opportunity for service providers, pilots tugs longshoremen everybody involved is going to see reduced opportunity . Winners will be big box stores and a few surviving mega ship owners.
Yes you are right, it is VERY unlikely that the new Mega ships (20000+ TEUs)will call at multiple ports on the North American continent. A much more likely scenario is two or three Mega ports on each coast, (or on the Bahamas or Cuba and WC Mexico) with transshipment from there by feeder ships, rail and road to smaller ports and inland destinations)
If the environmental impact gets to carry any weight in the planning, short sea shipping will be a part of this future.
They are also way ahead in high speed rail and low emission shipping development. If you donât want to be left behind it is time to look at a better way to handle transportation at home.
The US doesnât care about being left behind in 10 years if thereâs money to be made today.
In the meantime regular folk watch opportunity slipping away and feel like theyre caught in a vise crushing them.
Thatâs the way it is Ombugge, and no facts, no truth, no lecturing or âliberalsplainingâ is going to change it.
There is a huge propaganda industry wound into US politics that works to keep it that way for the benefit of those that want it that way, and use the pressure on the citizenry to advantage. Yeah ! the crowds eat - it - up !!!
The political, and ultimately policy, discussions in the US are so bad now that it is as if the Chief calls up the bridge in mid passage and says,"Hey Skipper, the stern tube seal done blown out and weâre flooding. Do us all a solid and when you can ring up SBE so we can inflate the backup and figger out a plan before the bilge pump motor goes under⌠". To which the Captain replies, âSounds like fake news to meâŚâ And hangs up.
The depth of the effect is inexplicable in general, and particularly to Europeans, especially Norwegians, who for the taxes they pay, have a government that shares the cake pretty well for the benefit of assorted fjord and city dwellers such as yourself.
So take those because itâs environmentally friendly theories of coastwise shipping in the US and stick 'em where that liberal environmental sunshine doesnât shine. Ainât gonna happen this side of The Revelation.
Shipping by train is a lot cheaper than truck for high volume shippers. Low volume shippers pay train freight rates that usually exceed truck rates, often by double or triple.
Itâs easy to ship by truck, truck common carriers, and thousands of truck brokers are anxious to give you competitive quotes. The railroads donât even want to talk to low volume shippers. There are very few rail freight brokers, and they do not want small volume customers either.
The problem with short sea shipping is the high longshore handling costs. Those make trucking cheaper than short sea shipping.
Maybe more interesting for a future US Short Sea market is the Short Sea/River trade, which is well developed in Europe and serve ports along the coast as well as river ports and the main inland waterways: http://www.shortsea.info/more-informations-sea-river-shipping.html
[QUOTE=tugsailor;194163]The problem with short sea shipping is the high longshore handling costs. Those make trucking cheaper than short sea shipping.[/QUOTE]
Yes I agree that the present way cargo are handled in US ports make Short Sea Shipping very difficult to implement. Inbuilt resistance to changes are well known.
Union resistance to changes âkilledâ UK ports back in the 1960/70s. It became cheaper to ship goods to Continental ports and truck them to the UK by Ro/Ro ferries and the Chunnel then to have ships delayed for days/weeks due to strikes in UK ports.
this subject has been discussed several times before in the forum and while the concept of coastwise shipping of containers seems like it would be good for traffic congestion in the major road corridors there are too many other negatives to the idea namely being:
unless any ship carrying these cargoes is very fast, the transit times for the cargoes to the final destinations would be longer than if transported only by road or possibly a rail/road combination
harbor taxes and fees that would not otherwise need to be added to the costs
longshore union contracts which we know are exorbitantly costly
the ships need to be US built thus new construction requiring financing with title XI support
double or even triple handling of the boxes before they finally get delivered
trucks still required to take boxes from and to terminals further congesting ports and the road connections in the cities which the whole idea is supposed to fix
need to build or expand existing container terminals to handle this traffic and the added costs of that
the need for tracking cargoes and the potential for boxes to become lost or seriously delayed in transit
frankly, the simplest fix to freeway congestion in and around the major cities caused by commercial trucks transporting cargo between consigners and consignees is best helped by mandating that no trucks use the freeways during peak traffic periods which in most cases is during the daylight hours. All parties would be far better served in the semi trucks with their trailers only move through cities late at night through the very early morning.
now for the concept of using feederships to move boxes from hubs out to smaller ports, most of the same negatives also apply plus if the hubs are foreign based then the feederships would not be US vessels and there goes any mew jobs for us Americans here. I would also think that most shipping companies would rather eat one very big port charge than lots of little charges and let the buyers worry about the highway congestion situation. Simply no incentive for them nor any benefit to the US maritime if all feederships are foreign flagged.
[QUOTE=ombugge;194159]Should that read âRevolutionâ??[/QUOTE]
No. The Revelation at the end of time.
Because US business will take that long to put ANYTHING in place that is intended to be âenvironmentally friendlyâ that costs one cent before it is somehow required by law.
And given the state of US politics, it will take that long to have any such policy or law in place.
And given the ability in the US to make multimillion dollar political campaign influencing âcontributionsâ without disclosing the donor base, as well as the new methods to foster misinformation, disinformation, misdirection, deception and just flat out lie in order to influence US politics ⌠well, no one is going to produce any âenvironmentalâ measures that add cost to the process. Man, that pussy environmental stuff is the new Communism.
Partyâs over dude. Facts donât matter here anymore. Deal done. Pack your bags because if youâre gonna insist on beating that environmental drum in the US nowadays, youâll be dealt with like Sophie Scholl or an Edelweiss Pirate kid in 1944 Cologne.
Now for all the horse feathers and variants, we done beat this topic like frigginâ dead because in the US road / rail combo smokes water for basically all inland moves. Boats3 explained it and itâs the truth. I did too, abt 3 months ago same thread.
Give it up Ombugge. Ainât gonna happen until road diesel costs about $18 a liter, and weâll just invade someplace and take the oil before it gets that high. And anyone at MARAD pushing a higher cost alternative will be made to walk the plank. Itâll fit the pattern.
Sorry state of affairs, and perhaps off a tad, but it is an accurate enough outline.
Now for all the horse feathers and variants, we done beat this topic like frigginâ dead because in the US road / rail combo smokes water for basically all inland moves. Boats3 explained it and itâs the truth. I did too, abt 3 months ago same thread
.
Dear Mrs. +A465
We regret to inform you of the loss of your loved one +A465B. He went far too soon. He dared to engage a large vortex of logical fallacy but got too near the event horizon and was sucked in. He engaged with logic, facts, nuanced reasoning but was met with only pointless droning prolixity and hyperlinks. Some might say it was a mistake to speak reasonably even in the face of a supercilious font of blather but is it ever a mistake to fight the good fight? I think not. Please accept this ceremonial monkey fist with sincere thanks from a grateful forum.
Dear Mrs. +A465
We regret to inform you of the loss of your loved one +A465B. He went far too soon. He dared to engage a large vortex of logical fallacy but got too near the event horizon and was sucked in. He engaged with logic, facts, nuanced reasoning but was met with only pointless droning prolixity and hyperlinks. Some might say it was a mistake to speak reasonably even in the face of a supercilious font of blather but is it ever a mistake to fight the good fight? I think not. Please accept this ceremonial monkey fist with sincere thanks from a grateful forum.[/QUOTE]
Prolixity it is ? Prolixity ⌠I can hardly bear it any more.[I]
âHow can we expect righteousness to prevail when there is hardly anyone willing to give himself up individually to a righteous cause? Such a fine, sunny day, and I have to go, but what does my death matter, if through us, thousands of people are awakened and stirred to action?â [/I] - last words of Sophie Scholl, German student convicted of resisting the Nazis by distributing resistance leaflets.
More seriously, I saw some popular Facebook posts yesterday calling for a whole lot more âlaw and orderâ after the Ft Lauderdale Airport shooting. As if rounding up anyone the cops deem out of the ordinary would make a difference to a nut case bent on destruction ⌠Yet the sentiments so strongly expressed without a second thought for the real long term consequences brought to mind how close we are to a national âevent horizonâ âŚ
[QUOTE=+A465B;194172]Prolixity it is ? Prolixity ⌠I can hardly bear it any more.[I]
âHow can we expect righteousness to prevail when there is hardly anyone willing to give himself up individually to a righteous cause? Such a fine, sunny day, and I have to go, but what does my death matter, if through us, thousands of people are awakened and stirred to action?â [/I] - last words of Sophie Scholl, German student convicted of resisting the Nazis by distributing resistance leaflets.
More seriously, I saw some popular Facebook posts yesterday calling for a whole lot more âlaw and orderâ after the Ft Lauderdale Airport shooting. As if rounding up anyone the cops deem out of the ordinary would make a difference to a nut case bent on destruction ⌠Yet the sentiments so strongly expressed without a second thought for the real long term consequences brought to mind how close we are to a national âevent horizonâ âŚ[/QUOTE]
As to the Aalesund dynamoâŚI donât know how you attempt to reason with that. My intent was to recognize valor in the face of attempting same.
As to the other above, the point is frighteningly real. You canât get all your info from one source and though I dislike the link rich environment posts are becoming I can not refer you here without one. You only need to read the first three paragraphs. I recognize a similarity in their and your point. But basically how [B][I]we[/I][/B] all, citizens of USA act and react now is the point not what our new leader is or isnât. I donât agree with everything written there but they have a unique outlook. I suggest checking in on the Jaundiced Eyeball column from time to time.
Right now Iâm going to pull up my long pants and head out to the short sea.
I got it. I was just taking advantage of the Alesund Alcolyteâs persistence to have a whinge. In his town Iâve seen the coastal cargo ships and Hurtigrunen ferry discharge small LTL cargo. There, it works. For the FE-US Inland container trade, no way, especially if the marketing ploy is âenvironmentalâ concerns.
But a lot of Europeans, and Iâd bet Americans, donât get how fundamentally the new money-politics-business-media game just changed in the US. There is no shame in hypocrisy anymore, none at all. Rather, we see there is profit in it, and its effect is ramping up like a 747 taking flight. What it means, weâll all find out soon enough.
