[QUOTE=Chief Seadog;176467]Tote said the riding gang was working on stuff related to the planned redeployment to Alaska. Given AIS information had the ship doing 20knots before propulsion was lost they were not running on 1 boiler.
I have had Polish riding gangs several times. Sometimes they were tank cleaners, once it was a crew of electricians pulling wire, and sometimes it was a mixed bag of machinists and welders but they were not doing any boiler work.
The point being having them aboard does not mean they were performing boiler repairs though this seems to keep coming up as the work they were doing.
The company they worked for was InTec Maritime Services.[/QUOTE]
I wasnāt trying to imply that they were sailing on one boiler- was just wondering what they were doing. Thanks for the info.
If you get the chance, 60 Minutes is airing a segment on the search tomorrow night.
From someone with close ties to this vessel, riding crew was there prepping for work on USWC and upgrades to systems, nothing to do with the boiler and nothing that required anything be shutdown for this prep work.
Anticipate watching 60 Minutes tonight, thanks for sharing the info.
InTec is a Swiss company with international scope and long experience in the shipping and offshore industry world wide. They use Polish technicians and workers extensively.
Here is their website, with a list of their offices: http://www.intecservice.com/home1.htm
Scott Pelley: Glen, in your estimation, where does the responsibility for this lie?
Glen Jackson: Squarely on TOTE Maritime. And you gotta understand, commercial shipping. They gotta keep that ship moving to make money. And it-- thatās the whole horror of this tragedy is that 33 people died so that frozen chickens could be delivered on time in Puerto Rico. Thatās it.
indeed, that really it is in a nutshell. I speculate that TOTE demanded the master take the route he did because they did not want the ship to arrive late and the master being a captive employee with plenty of other masters ready to fill his shoes had no clear option but to agree and pray nothing went wrongā¦BUT SOMETHING VERY TRAGICALLY DID AND 33 OF OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS DIED AT SEA NEEDLESSLY!
[QUOTE=saltān steel;176508]Just finished watching the segment on El Faro. Sad footage of the wreck but I didnāt learn anything major.[/QUOTE]
It was tough to see the battered sections of bridge. I can only imagine the terror they felt in their last moments.
I will also have to respectfully disagree with the one family member who wanted to make this an issue of the vesselās age. Maybe because I routinely sail on vessels older than El Faro. In my opinion this accident came about because of a string of bad decision making. The error chain.
of course not! reading between the lines of all that has been released so far, the NTSB is marching in lockstep to TOTEās snappy toon that everything that happened was the masterās fault! TOTE I am certain has shredded and then burned any and all evidence of their complicity and the head of the investigation is only too happy to be a stoopid lap dog for his masters which are all powerful investment bankers at Saltchuk Resources!
Scott Pelley: The captain sailed into this hurricane, we know that much, but what we donāt know is why.
Tom Roth-Roffy: So weāre looking at the oversight and the direction, and the advice provided by the operating company, TOTE, to see what information was available to him. Certainly also weāre looking at the weather forecast. The accuracy and the timeliness of the information when he made the decision to sail where he did.
Scott Pelley: To your knowledge was he receiving orders from the company to press on?
Tom Roth-Roffy: No. From what weāve identified so far in the information weāve reviewed, there has been no direct guidance by the company to sail on the route he chose.
THIS ONE IS GOING TO BE NO DIFFERENT LIKE ALL THE OTHERS BEFORE ITā¦NOBODY IN POSITIONS OF AUTHORITY WILL FACE EVEN A WRISTSLAP LET ALONE FACE GOING TO PRISON WHERE THEY ALL BELONG! REEKING FESTERING FILTHY CORRUPTION AT ALL LEVELS EXCEPT THE MARINERS AT THE VERY BOTTOM WHO PAY WITH THEIR LIVES!
[QUOTE=saltān steel;176515]Anyone know if there are anymore plans to go back to the wreck and do a more thorough search for the VDR?[/QUOTE]
It would be a research ship doing that work, which would involve weeks and weeks of mowing the lawn and ROV dives. I donāt even know if itās findable- being such a small item.
I got the impression from the program tonight, a subtle insinuation of error the captain made by choosing the route he did.
Assuming here, but there must have been a voyage plan factoring in reasoning due to weather and such, and someone in an office was getting position reportsā¦
[QUOTE=Ctony;176520]I got the impression from the program tonight, a subtle insinuation of error the captain made by choosing the route he did.
Assuming here, but there must have been a voyage plan factoring in reasoning due to weather and such, and someone in an office was getting position reportsā¦[/QUOTE]
I think a lot of thatās already been hashed out earlier in the thread. I have no doubt there were errors on all sides, both from the office and on the ship. Mistakes have a tendency to build on one another and often when youāre in the middle of a crisis, you become blind to them. A kind of tunnel vision develops.
I hope more facts come out in discovery during the lawsuits. Maybe one of these days weāll be tasked with looking for the VDR. The ship that is best suited for this is on the west coast at the moment.
Thisād is an example of why professional weather ROUTING services should be mandatory, with the understanding by all parties (specifically the office) that the professional recommendation is absolute. If the pros say sail and something goes wrong it isnāt completely on they Master and if the pros say wait the office canāt coerce the Master to sail.
[QUOTE=catherder;176521]I think a lot of thatās already been hashed out earlier in the thread. I have no doubt there were errors on all sides, both from the office and on the ship. Mistakes have a tendency to build on one another and often when youāre in the middle of a crisis, you become blind to them. A kind of tunnel vision develops. [/QUOTE]
Occamās Razor comes to mind when one asks why a ship would plot a course into a hurricane when other options were available.
[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;176522]Thisād is an example of why professional weather ROUTING services should be mandatory, with the understanding by all parties (specifically the office) that the professional recommendation is absolute. If the pros say sail and something goes wrong it isnāt completely on they Master and if the pros say wait the office canāt coerce the Master to sail.[/QUOTE]
I agree that weather routing is a good idea, but as advise for the Master, not an overriding āauthorityā.
The power of the Master to make decisions of safety is among the oldest in Maritime Law and should not be watered down by adding still another layer to the equation.
What needs to be strengthened is exactly the authority of the Master to refuse āordersā or āadviseā from āthe officeā, whether Owner, Charterer or the Authorities. He is the man on the scene and should know the situation and limitations of his ship better than anyone.
He may seek advise and assistance from outside sources, but should not feel that he is forced to follow them.
A Buddy and I were discussing how a Office might communicate with a vessel about āWeather Routingā.
Here is an example of how a Company could get itās point across. (Captain), We are expecting some nasty weather so I plan on altering my course to xxx in order to avoid said weather. (Company Rep), Well Captain you need to do what you need to do to keep your ship, cargo and crew safe. (Captain), I will keep you up to date with any change to the ETA and will notify you of any changes. (Company Rep), thanks Captain. While we are talking, I just wanted to give you an update on the selection of Crews for the New Ships coming out this year. We have not finished with the selection process but we are narrowing the list of candidates down. Have a Safe Trip.
If any communication was even close to this, the company rep could and most likely would have NO problem answering any questions about whether they had āPressuredā the Captain to make decisions on what to do when it came to the Weather. After all never told the Captain NOT to do something. It all comes down to how the questions from the NTSB are asked. You had better believe that any and all office personnel have spent a lot of time with Company Lawyers coaching them on what to say and how to word their responses. As long as no āSmoking Gunā (a recording of them telling the Captain to not delay or heās fired) the majority of the blame will end up on the Captain. This may piss off some but I do feel that he does have the most blame as he could have turned around or taken the Old Bahama Channel Route. Yes, I also know that had what ever happened to the plant had not happened they most likely would have been fine.
Does anyone remember whether this Captain had taken the Old Bahama Channel on a previous trip earlier in the year? I seem to remember someone saying that he did. If he did, I have to wonder how much the Crap that he caught for any delays on that trip weighed on his decision of what to do and when to do it.
While I was only a Lowly CE, I was witness to more than one occasion where the office lied to us and basically forced us to sail when it would have been better to stay put or stop loading and sail early.
[QUOTE=Tugs;176534]
Does anyone remember whether this Captain had taken the Old Bahama Channel on a previous trip earlier in the year? I seem to remember someone saying that he did. If he did, I have to wonder how much the Crap that he caught for any delays on that trip weighed on his decision of what to do and when to do it.
[/QUOTE]
See post 1046 and 1062. Seems they were on a similar route from the previous voyage.
The NTSB investigator on the CBS report seemed to imply propulsion loss was due to overspeed trip (he says something about prop coming out of the water). Previous discussion on here seemed centered on loss of lube oil pressure or level (albeit also due to ship motion). A turbine trip can result in plant issues that take time to recover from and it may have been time they did not have. It has been many years since I sailed steam but I know it is not hitting a reset button and a start button. Boilers, condensers, feed and condensate issues all while being tossed about. I was expecting some transcript type info of the communication with the ship relating to the nature of the propulsion problem. Are they saving it for the final report?
[QUOTE=KPChief;176535]See post 1046 and 1062. Seems they were on a similar route from the previous voyage.
The NTSB investigator on the CBS report seemed to imply propulsion loss was due to overspeed trip (he says something about prop coming out of the water). Previous discussion on here seemed centered on loss of lube oil pressure or level (albeit also due to ship motion). A turbine trip can result in plant issues that take time to recover from and it may have been time they did not have. It has been many years since I sailed steam but I know it is not hitting a reset button and a start button. Boilers, condensers, feed and condensate issues all while being tossed about. I was expecting some transcript type info of the communication with the ship relating to the nature of the propulsion problem. Are they saving it for the final report?[/QUOTE]
Perhaps that info is being kept confidential due to pending litigation?
[QUOTE=KPChief;176535]See post 1046 and 1062. Seems they were on a similar route from the previous voyage.
The NTSB investigator on the CBS report seemed to imply propulsion loss was due to overspeed trip (he says something about prop coming out of the water).[/QUOTE]
If I remember correctly, they mentioned the possibility of the wheel coming out as a possible cause. Who knows what the NTSB has when it comes to evidence. When the NTSB Guy said that they will get to the cause of the loss, I was shaking my head as without having more information on what was going on all that they can do is guess. All of those that know what was happening are gone.
To me the biggest thing to take from this terrible loss is just how little a Dead Merchant Mariner is worth. Now I do hope that the Pressure that the Company puts on the Vesselās Crew to stay on Schedule is brought to light but I doubt it as that is all that the customer cares about!
The worse part is they force you to stay on schedule off the record. Thereās unlikely any emails or other correspondence saying so, but you know sure as shit if you donāt there would be consequences, so how do you prove it?