GOOD. Beat it.
If youāre so sorry push the delete button.
[QUOTE=Fraqrat;170961]Amen brother, most of us had the immediate thought and hoped to be wrong. If only scooter could possibly understand that being sensitive wasnāt for our sakes but for the families and friends.[/QUOTE]
I tried to not say it too often but felt there had to be one voice to maintain a sense of reality to the tragedy unfolding. I DID NOT relish being that voice but felt somebody had to say what I did. I wanted to be wrongā¦you have got to believe me when I say that. I truly felt somehow that I died on that ship with those poor miserable wretches. It brought me back to living through mountainous towering seas astern of the GALAXY that night with the knowledge (now) that a machinery casualty then would have been my life suddenly being snuffed out in a very cold sea in the dark.
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[QUOTE=c.captain;170971]I tried to not say it too often but felt there had to be one voice to maintain a sense of reality to the tragedy unfolding. I DID NOT relish being that voice but felt somebody had to say what I did. I wanted to be wrongā¦you have got to believe me when I say that. I truly felt somehow that I died on that ship with those poor miserable wretches. It brought me back to living through mountainous towering seas astern of the GALAXY that night with the knowledge (now) that a machinery casualty then would have been my life suddenly being snuffed out in a very cold sea in the dark.
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nope, gonna leave it but just not add any moreā¦if you canāt handle the ugly truth then you are not a mariner
I suppose you will enjoy it when I say how you are beginning to irritate me[/QUOTE]
Thank God I do not have to work with or around you. Who cares what experience you have.
You canāt deal with people, and that is the one of the quickest ways to get fired.
You are truly beyond shameless, and by your own deeds, have gleefully forfeited any moral standing to speak for any merchant mariner.
Vile. Donāt even come around here anymore, it is that disgusting.
[QUOTE=+A465B;170972]Thank God I do not have to work with or around you. Who cares what experience you have. [/QUOTE]
Oh such a brutally tough man you areā¦I shrink away humiliated and mortified by your condemnationā¦
NOT!
btw, you will be very happy to know that I depart my home now so once again bid farewell till this evening when I will return to inflict myself like some dreaded disease upon you yet againā¦
see you in the funny papers! cough, cough
I assumed (maybe incorrectly) that the trailers had probably already broken loose and were the probable cause of the 15 degree list and possibly the flooding.
I assumed it would not be the containers causing the list because they were only four high and had nowhere to go but overboard. Usually, when I have seen containers go itās either the outside column of boxes, or the entire block topples all the way across without causing a lot of list. But Iāve only seen that a few times.
[QUOTE=c.captain;170944]four factors why I believed that they were lost shortly after 7:20am last Thursday
- shipās track vs. the stormās (they got so close that they were unable to conduct storm avoidance)
[B]2. that ALL communications had ceased suddenly and had not been reestablished nor had any distress message get sent (suddenly catastrophic loss is almost invariably indicated)[/B]
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that 24hours had passed from that last communication without hearing a single signal from the vessel (the crew on a ship which survived would have found some way to get out a distress call to the worldā¦too much equipment aboard for it ALL to completely fail and not be able to be restored to use)
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that the vessel was old and steam powered (ie. susceptible to many possible machinery casualties which could leave the vessel unable to regain propulsion)
I did not believe a crew could survive an abandoning because of the conditions at the time they would have been forced to, the believe that the ship rolled on her beam ends suddenly and that the lifesaving appliances aboard were not of a design which would permit successful use in such conditions nor with a vessel laying on its side.[/QUOTE]
You are correctā¦ She went down suddenly, and it was catastrophicā¦ SAR found only 1 body in a Survival Suit, and if I read correctly āempty suitsā foundā¦ This is telling me that vessel probably rolled violently, capsized, with the lone body to escape the vessel wearing a survival suit more than likely came from the navigation bridgeā¦ Probably other crew were on bridge, but didnāt have chance to put on suits ā¦ That fast, that quick!! Communication ceased, NO TIME TO GET OUT A DISTRESS CALLā¦
[QUOTE=tugsailor;170976]I assumed (maybe incorrectly) that the trailers had probably already broken loose and were the probable cause of the 15 degree list and possibly the flooding.
I assumed it would not be the containers causing the list because they were only four high and had nowhere to go but overboard. Usually, when I have seen containers go itās either the outside column of boxes, or the entire block topples all the way across without causing a lot of list. But Iāve only seen that a few times.[/QUOTE]
Having been on that ship, and seeing how cargo shifts, breaks away, damaged or lost containers overboard from snap rolls in storms, it is possibleā¦ They also carry very heavy equipment below deck that very easily could have broken free and shiftedā¦ Vessel that morning had no propulsionā¦ She was broachingā¦ Taking on waterā¦ Plenty of openings on 2nd deck for water to gatherā¦
Speculation of course, but there was talk of a navigational incident, and also of water coming through a hatch. If it was enough water to cause a 15ā¢ list, it may have been a side port. Then loss of boiler from list, heavy rolling DIW, rolling stock breaks free. Stability lost.
The term ānavigational incidentā could encompass a lot of different things. I wonder who chose that phrase. Grounding and collision are the first things that come to my mind, but do not seem pertinent here. I suppose it could broadly include things like a cargo shift, hatch coming loose, etc.
That is a question that hopefully will be answered in due course.
[QUOTE=Nelson Delmar;170982]Speculation of course, but there was talk of a navigational incident, and also of water coming through a hatch. If it was enough water to cause a 15ā¢ list, it may have been a side port. Then loss of boiler from list, heavy rolling DIW, rolling stock breaks free. Stability lost.[/QUOTE]
What hatch are you referring to in specific? Are you suggesting the hatch you are referring to was somehow defective? How exactly on the El Faro were the rolling cargo stock secured below? Do you know?
[QUOTE=Nelson Delmar;170982]Speculation of course, but there was talk of a navigational incident, and also of water coming through a hatch. If it was enough water to cause a 15ā¢ list, it may have been a side port. Then loss of boiler from list, heavy rolling DIW, rolling stock breaks free. Stability lost.[/QUOTE]
Itād take more than15 degrees of rolling to trip a boiler. Itād probably take way beyond 45 degrees to trip a boiler. Theyāre designed to be on ships.
Recent search activity of three tugs.
The NTSBās reputation has been arrived at by their expertise in air disasters. Conclusions drawn here by experienced seamen, analyizing the identical data the NTSB has will have just as much credence, if not more, than the conclusions drawn by our government. Like a patientās desire to see a doctorās report card rather than his diploma, my guess is that the NTSB investigation team will consist of a bunch of KP 3/Mates who wouldnāt be caught on a ship long enough to need a toothbrush. More important than experience will be the requirements that all race and gender types will be represented for the TV audiences. The NTSB is a highly politically connected organization. I am not suggesting that the upcoming investigation will be dishonest, I am suggesting that the investigating team may/will not have enough experience to positively arrive at the correct conclusions.
I was C/Mate on a Marine Transport Lines ship when the Marine Electric went down. I served with the Master held accountable,on another ship, another time. I know the NTSBās conclusion of the disaster was wrong. The NTSB just isnāt that good with marine disasters. I will not say anything further on this example. I would trust the conclusions drawn from experienced seamen here after you held up at someoneās camp over a long weekend than I would the NTSBās.
The Dept. of Defense, Homeland Security and private US Merchant Fleet assets have shown the bright side of cooperation. All the uniformed services involved will get at least one new ribbon. The reality of the upcoming investigation is that although we may applaud the CGās seagoing assets, the unbelievably bureaucratic, top heavy, and totally āunsaltyā CG will be taking it from here. One time in my career I asked the CG, in writing, to review one of their steps in a certification process. My assigned contact on the CG side wasnāt responding knowledgeably. I ran him through Linkedin. He was a retired Army personnel sergeant. This is the reality of the upcoming expertise influencing the upcoming investigation.
TOTE has always been a good company to work for. The seamen who worked the Great Land, Westward Venture and Northern Lights had good jobs. I never heard any bitching from seamen who shipped with TOTE about the company.
Time may be more critical than some may think. Although the Marine Electric went down in 30 ft. of water, the next week, when MTL and the CG went to the sinking site the anchor gear, spare anchor and prop had already been pirated from the ship.
Now to expose a character flaw I have,I have to wonder if the one seaman found in the gumby suit were a Coastguardsman instead of a merchant seaman would he have been left to his/her unceremonious end. We all know that a soul in a gumby suit is not unrecognizable after 72 hours.
Heavy rolling can cause a boiler to trip on low water, but it probably wouldnāt affect both boilers at the same time. It also can cause issues with crap/water in the fuel service tanks to foul the filters. I always hate the first bit of rough weather after we have been in calm seas a while, because you know you could be cleaning strainers a bunch.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2015/10/07/statement-president-el-faro-cargo-ship
Pretty weak statement from the POTUS considering the unlimited resources, yet it not surprising. I guess the deck department doesnāt exist.
[QUOTE=Boston99;170981]Having been on that ship, and seeing how cargo shifts, breaks away, damaged or lost containers overboard from snap rolls in storms, it is possibleā¦ They also carry very heavy equipment below deck that very easily could have broken free and shiftedā¦ Vessel that morning had no propulsionā¦ She was broachingā¦ Taking on waterā¦ Plenty of openings on 2nd deck for water to gatherā¦[/QUOTE]
Just for sake of good order and understanding, are you stating you have personally witnessed cargo shifting and breaking away, and snap rolls during your service onboard? It is not a trick question, and I do not doubt it, but am rather seeking that it be stated clearly.
Among others, I have been caught in an extratropical transition or post-tropical stage cyclone which collided with a nearby baroclinic system in the North Atlantic. I told myself that if anything goes wrong with the mechanics, there will no way out to survive and was then prepare to sink in peace with the ship.
Since that memorable experience, I am not anymore in a position to understand the reasons why to push a 40 years old container converted rust bucket toward the vicinity of a well forecasted hurricane along with a said or known mechanical problem. DĆ©jĆ vuā¦ Sorry to say that I suspect the sinking as nothing but prompt and cataclysmic.
Please accept my deepest sympathies to the afflicted families. Be assured that the soul of your loved ones will rest in peace.
"Weāre a strange group compared to most. We argue, cuss each other, and bitch about most anything. But we always have each others backs. "
Reminds me of an old military squadron patch:
[I]āWe hate each otherā¦but we hate you more[/I]ā!
If youāre willing to die for/with someone, I call it rights of commraderie.
Awesome. Flame onā¦
Youāve hit the nail on the head but we have to wait until all the info is released. The problem, and Iām sure you know is they are not gonna give any of us this data. We will have to sit here and suffer through this investigation and lawsuits before we get all of it. There are some of us here who are struggling with the fact we are at the mercy of the bureaucracy.