Recognition of Foreign STCW Certificates

Professional Mariner Forum
21

[QUOTE=bythewind;42421] I live in Germany and we had this development already a few years ago.

Then the companies started to flag out to such an extent that the German flag almost disappeared from the oceans and was only used for local vessels. So .

The result is clear. Our ships are now full of Romanian, Polish, Bulgarian officers and captains.

B.[/QUOTE]

I think we had better take notice to what has happened in Europe with the forming of the EU …With particular attention to Germany…We are mirroring them in so many ways and as a result, Germany has lost it’s autonomy with respect to transportation…We are going the same direction…

I owned and operated a west coast trucking company, for 22 years before I sold it all and went back to the sea 2 years ago…I had many friends who were in the business, originally from Germany, who told me what had happened to them and how Germany now only has 2 major truck lines in the whole country that are owned by citizens…The drivers in Germany are now Polls,Ukranian and Russian…very few Germans have those jobs as the wages are so low…The same thing has been happening here and is one of the reasons I sold out in disgust…

If bythewind is correct and I think he/she is…Then all we have to do is look what is happening there, to see what is coming our way…We have to do whatever we can now, or it will be too late…As bythewind stated, the results are clear…

22

To ShellBack et all…

I cannot emphasize more strongly the need that every American mariner who cares at all about his livelihood and wants there to be a future working on US flagged ships [B][I][U]MUST[/U][/I][/B] write in opposition to the proposed rulemaking! Yes, there is a chance we still might not prevail in the end but to capitulate without a fight is just plain being a loser. To lose a fight, if fought valiantly and with conviction, does not make one a loser…you will know that you gave it your all in a noble and worthy cause and anyone who fights the good fight and loses, loses with honor! So get out there and write letters. We need at least one hundred mariners to comment and hopefully many more to get the attention of the USCG. Even if in the end, the USCG recognizes the legitimacy of the foreign STCW certificates (which they ARE supposed to do under the Convention) it does not mean that they cannot keep in place the safeguards to maintaining American mariners stay on US ships! We need to make damn sure that they know we are out there and give a goddamn about our jobs. The Coast Guard has never really ever heard the voice of the mariners themselves, they have only heard from the vessel owners and the unions. Both have drastically differing viewpoints and agendas. The mariner himself needs to finally be heard!

Anyway, so much for trying to motivate my fellow mariners with my Knute Rockne impersonization, but which do you want to be? A stupid steer going down that shute to be slaughtered or the [U][I][B]BULL[/B][/I][/U] trying to get a piece of that f’ing matador! I know which one I chose to be…

[U][I][B]NOW WHO THE HELL HERE IS WITH ME[/B][/I][/U]! Use the draft letter if you want to, just cut and paste in to your own .doc file and sign your name at the end. I doesn’t matter if the USCG gets 100 of the same letter, they have to count it as 100 comments in opposition when they release the final rulemaking findings.

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view document and make comment here: http://www.regulations.gov/search/Regs/home.html#documentDetail?R=0900006480b60b34

contact our “for the people” government representatives here: http://www.usa.gov/Contact/Elected.shtml

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Seadawg and Ccaptain, thank you for the links and draft letter, submitted due to y’alls info.

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[QUOTE=roversea;42536]Seadawg and Ccaptain, thank you for the links and draft letter, submitted due to y’alls info.[/QUOTE]

No, thank you roversea…now, it we can just get a hundred more like you we might actually be heard this time!

26

Thanks C.Captain for keeping this post alive. I have responded to the docket as well as my representatives in my district. I know many others who have also. Let’s keep this fight going, or we will surely lose yet another piece of our livelihoods.

27

I hate to say this, but I don’t believe a blatant outright assault on the Coast Guard’s effort to become STCW compliant is going to hold much water. It will happen, but how can it happen with protections in place. A policy change, or an additional policy, will not supersede the Jones Act. The biggest complaint that I have seen is on the Specialized vessels in the gulf on Jones Act waivers. This ruling will not change that, they’re not US flagged anyway, but if the US is STCW compliant, then certain flag states will be able to recognize our licenses issued by the Coast Guard. That would open US mariners to jobs, believe it or not, to these specialized vessels under certain flags.
Several facts need to be put on the table, that people need to digest, think about, then go forward. I only see knee-jerk reactions here. The problem with this tactic, is the real issues will not be heard, and in the end, hurt the US Mariner, because the Coast Guard will do what they need to do anyway.
The obvious answer, to me, would be to have an international register of ships, Certificates of Equivalency issued only to those US flagged ships under the register, and to have a separate register for those in the Jones Act trade where CEC’s are not valid. This is a valid approach done by other countries to become STCW compliant while observing cabotage laws. Some flag states go as far as making CECs’ valid only for a specific ship.
Funny thing is. There are several people on here that have Certificates of Equivalency from other countries that make their current jobs possible on MODU’s. C.Captain, I know you must have a Marshall Islands CEC to be on the Bully I. At the same time, there are US flagged vessels overseas faced with detentions because we are not reciprocating under STCW. The Coast Guard is well aware of this.
I’m going to reserve my submission until I have had time to learn a little more. The submissions that I have read to the point, I hate to say, will not hold much water, and in the end - not heard.
The Coast Guard is seeking comments on the development of a policy, to help shape the policy. Not if they’re going to develop a policy. Stick to that, I believe we will be more credible. There are issues to be addressed outside of what I’ve read here.

28

anchorman,

while I concur…suspect that what is currently being proposed in regards to STCW “issues” is a “done deal” regardless of comment or concern for “safe-guarding” the individual mariner…my fear is that most of what is currently being proposed by the USCG in regards to STCW issues will be adopted with little regard as to it’s effect on the individual mariner and will resultantly be “creatively abused” by corporate entities!!

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[QUOTE=anchorman;42546]I hate to say this, but I don’t believe a blatant outright assault on the Coast Guard’s effort to become STCW compliant is going to hold much water. It will happen, but how can it happen with protections in place. A policy change, or an additional policy, will not supersede the Jones Act. The biggest complaint that I have seen is on the Specialized vessels in the gulf on Jones Act waivers. This ruling will not change that, they’re not US flagged anyway, but if the US is STCW compliant, then certain flag states will be able to recognize our licenses issued by the Coast Guard. That would open US mariners to jobs, believe it or not, to these specialized vessels under certain flags.
Several facts need to be put on the table, that people need to digest, think about, then go forward. I only see knee-jerk reactions here. The problem with this tactic, is the real issues will not be heard, and in the end, hurt the US Mariner, because the Coast Guard will do what they need to do anyway.
The obvious answer, to me, would be to have an international register of ships, Certificates of Equivalency issued only to those US flagged ships under the register, and to have a separate register for those in the Jones Act trade where CEC’s are not valid. This is a valid approach done by other countries to become STCW compliant while observing cabotage laws. Some flag states go as far as making CECs’ valid only for a specific ship.
Funny thing is. There are several people on here that have Certificates of Equivalency from other countries that make their current jobs possible on MODU’s. C.Captain, I know you must have a Marshall Islands CEC to be on the Bully I. At the same time, there are US flagged vessels overseas faced with detentions because we are not reciprocating under STCW. The Coast Guard is well aware of this.
I’m going to reserve my submission until I have had time to learn a little more. The submissions that I have read to the point, I hate to say, will not hold much water, and in the end - not heard.
The Coast Guard is seeking comments on the development of a policy, to help shape the policy. Not if they’re going to develop a policy. Stick to that, I believe we will be more credible. There are issues to be addressed outside of what I’ve read here.[/QUOTE]

This is the first responsible post that I have read in this thread. Thanks.

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[QUOTE=seadawg;42548]…my fear is that most of what is currently being proposed by the USCG in regards to STCW issues will be adopted with little regard as to it’s effect on the individual mariner and will resultantly be “creatively abused” by corporate entities!![/QUOTE]

This is exactly what my point is…the USCG really must recognize the SCTW certificates of seafarers of other nations since that is part of the Convention. I don’t like but it is what it is. As you point out seadawg it is how those newly recognized foreign seafarers will then be taken by unscrupulous US flag shipowners and shoehorned in to replace American seafarers. A few at first, then a few more. An AB then a third assistant engineer. Slowly but insidiously, these foreign seafarers will end up with our jobs. This is the danger that the USCG must be made aware of now before the rule is changed.

I will take the anti cynical position here (which is rare for me) and believe that comments sent in to the USCG in response to a notice of proposed rulemaking actually matter because they become part of the Federal Register and not buried on some bureaucrat’s desk. After received they must be posted online for all concerned parties to read! I hold firmly that there is nothing to lose and everything to gain in commenting especially when the comments some in considerable numbers. So PLEASE comment!

Anchorman, you have some points I will address soon in a seperate post.

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[QUOTE=cmakin;42551]This is the first responsible post that I have read in this thread. Thanks.[/QUOTE]

Ah, hello to my old friend…you do not sail as a seafarer anymore. What skin do you have in the game to be part of this thread? Do you still even have your license?

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For those who plan to comment, think about some of these issues.

Foreign seafarers cost less than Americans because they have national health insurance coverage and do not have to sue to receive medical treatment or compensation for injuries. An accident does not lead to bankruptcy and homelessness in their country.

Foreign seafarers cost less because they have national pension plans that do not require the employer to pay large amounts to the employee or the government.

Foreign seafarers cost less because their government, as a general rule, does not tax the income they receive.

American seafarers pay taxes, invest in pension plans, buy medical insurance, and risk losing everything in the event of a minor injury.

American seafarers pay tuition for their own education and that of their children. College or trade school is not part of the government provided educational system.

Consider where the profits from eliminating American seafarers will go. I can promise you it will not lead to lower shipping costs or a reduction in US government expenditures for the CG or other regulators. The money that would have gone to paying Americans to live in America will simply go into the offshore bank account of a shipping company executive and the politician who sold the American seafarer into poverty. The death by starvation of a few sailors will not even be noticed by the press. Their passing will only be noted by the presence of a few more foreclosure sales in widely scattered neighborhoods across the country.

This plan is treachery at best and should probably be considered treasonous. It is a sellout by the CG and Congress for their personal benefit and future wealth. This is dirty politics and it stinks.

Those who believe professional wrestling is rigged are wrong, compared to politics, it is very real. This latest assault on one of the few remaining jobs that pay a “living wage” is the perfect example. Don’t just comment, rage and rebel against this travesty.

33

[QUOTE=Steamer;42555]For those who plan to comment, think about some of these issues.

Foreign seafarers cost less than Americans because they have national health insurance coverage and do not have to sue to receive medical treatment or compensation for injuries. An accident does not lead to bankruptcy and homelessness in their country.

Foreign seafarers cost less because they have national pension plans that do not require the employer to pay large amounts to the employee or the government.

Foreign seafarers cost less because their government, as a general rule, does not tax the income they receive.

American seafarers pay taxes, invest in pension plans, buy medical insurance, and risk losing everything in the event of a minor injury.

American seafarers pay tuition for their own education and that of their children. College or trade school is not part of the government provided educational system.

Consider where the profits from eliminating American seafarers will go. I can promise you it will not lead to lower shipping costs or a reduction in US government expenditures for the CG or other regulators. The money that would have gone to paying Americans to live in America will simply go into the offshore bank account of a shipping company executive and the politician who sold the American seafarer into poverty. The death by starvation of a few sailors will not even be noticed by the press. Their passing will only be noted by the presence of a few more foreclosure sales in widely scattered neighborhoods across the country.

This plan is treachery at best and should probably be considered treasonous. It is a sellout by the CG and Congress for their personal benefit and future wealth. This is dirty politics and it stinks.

Those who believe professional wrestling is rigged are wrong, compared to politics, it is very real. This latest assault on one of the few remaining jobs that pay a “living wage” is the perfect example. Don’t just comment, rage and rebel against this travesty.[/QUOTE]

Steamer,
Try educating me just a little. “Foreigner” is too broad of a word for any of those statements to be 100% true. What flags / countries are you talking about? The way you are explaining everything, we should all learn a foreign language and buy a plan ticket. You almost have me sold, but I don’t know what kind of weather we’re talking about here.

34

[QUOTE=anchorman;42557]Steamer,
Try educating me just a little. “Foreigner” is too broad of a word …[/QUOTE]

Foreign(er) is any license holder other than an American citizen holding a USCG license valid for service on US flagged vessels as of today. That doesn’t seem too terribly broad. To narrow it even further for you, it means anyone not eligible by virtue of non-citizenship to hold a USCG license. The target beneficiary of the proposed sell out.

Just to mix this mess up a bit. How does this latest proposal square with the FCC licensing requirements that require an applicant to:

[I]"… be a legal resident of (or otherwise eligible for employment in) the United States; …"[/I]

So is the FCC going to change their rules too? Based on what? Are the requirements for GMDSS and other radio operator’s licenses going to go away? Are the newly authorized CeC holders going to have the right to live and work in the US? What do the fine folks at ICE have to say about the USCG and a handful of lobbyists turning US immigration laws upside down?

It should be interesting to see how many of the company mandated training requirements go by the wayside since that training is not required or even available to foreign* license holders.

*licenses other than those currently issued by the USCG.

35

For those who plan to comment, think about some of these issues.

(1)Foreign seafarers cost less than Americans because they have national health insurance coverage and do not have to sue to receive medical treatment or compensation for injuries. An accident does not lead to bankruptcy and homelessness in their country.

(2)Foreign seafarers cost less because they have national pension plans that do not require the employer to pay large amounts to the employee or the government.

(3)Foreign seafarers cost less because their government, as a general rule, does not tax the income they receive.

(4)American seafarers pay taxes, invest in pension plans, buy medical insurance, and risk losing everything in the event of a minor injury.

(5)American seafarers pay tuition for their own education and that of their children. College or trade school is not part of the government provided educational system.

(1) Norway, Canada, the UK all have National Health Care (I will not comment on the remainer of that point since I do not fully understand what it is implying)

(2) Definitely Norway here!

(3) Not an easy one to answer because each nation has differnent taxes on wages earned by seafarers working overseas. I do know that there are foreign shipowners which pay the income taxes of their seafarers working on the OCS and then those seafarers get credits against their national taxes. I believe that most, if not all, foreign seafarers working in the GoM pay anything into the US Treasury.

(4) American seafarers do pay FULL Federal Income & FICA taxes, they do have to contribute to their health plans (if their employer offers a health plan), in only a few cases these days does an American seafarer get a pension but they do have to contribute to their 401K. American seafarers are protected against injury aboard ship if the ship is found unseaworthy, but that is often a long process to collect the damages and seafarers often suffer with ridiculous “maintenance” which they are unable to work.

(5) Norway again!

So in my opinion is isn’t purely a cost advantage to the foreign national unless he is from the Phillipines or other third world nation. Most Europeans working on the OCS get paid equal to or more than their American counterparts which makes this a contradiction but personally, I believe it is that European (and more than an few American) shipowners do not like Americans, think we are dirty and stupid but mainly are afraid of us because we can sue them for damages if we are injured on one of their vessels working in the US. I refer back to my much earlier thread on this topic where more than one Norwegian claimed as much about Americans as I have just stated.

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[QUOTE=c.captain;42553]Ah, hello to my old friend…you do not sail as a seafarer anymore. What skin do you have in the game to be part of this thread? Do you still even have your license?[/QUOTE]

My interest is in a strong US flag fleet. It sure isn’t right now. Do you mean that my comments mean nothing because I no longer go to sea? If that is the case, well, it is easy to ignore them, then. What I do have is a world view of shipping and the offshore business. I certainly think that a US “International” registry would be a great supplement to the current US flag registry.

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[QUOTE=cmakin;42563] I certainly think that a US “International” registry would be a great supplement to the current US flag registry.[/QUOTE]

First, we have virtually no US flag foreign going merchant ships anymore (excepting MSP and DoD contracted ships which will always have US mariners) so the idea of an International Registry is pretty moot in this discussion. What is at risk here are US flagged ships in coastwise trade or more importantly, OCS trade. There is clear evidence which bears out that some US shipowners will find loopholes and use false claims to state that US qualified seafarers are not available and then get permission to hire foreign national seafarers with COE licenses (the proposed rulemaking specifically mentions this occuring!). The USA is not the first country where this has occured but that is no excuse at all that it [U][I]MUST[/I][/U] happen here…at least not without a fight!

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[QUOTE=cmakin;42563]I certainly think that a US “International” registry would be a great supplement to the current US flag registry.[/QUOTE]

Ask all those unemployed European seafarers how their “international registry” has worked for them. Here’s an old clip for your supplemental reading:

[I]"MANILA, Nov 30 Asia Pulse - More than 10,000 jobs await Filipino seafarers in Norwegian ships with the recognition of the certificates of competence (COC’s) of the Filipino seafarers in Norwegian-registered vessels. "[/I]

And here’s a training opportunity for you:

[I]Norwegian Training Center for seafarers in Manila - [/I][I]maritime Course Program[/I][I]: Cargo and Ship Handling, <ACRONYM title=“Standards for Seafarer’s Training, Certification, and Watch keeping”>STCW-95</ACRONYM> certification. The training centre also oversees and administers a [/I][I]Cadet training[/I][I] ( deck and engine ) programme. Includes several navigational colleges around the Philippines[/I]

And some comments from Norwegian seafarers themselves:
[I]I think that there is somewhat of a lower standard today, for example in important things like maintenance. It is very obvious for some of the officers that I have been working with. It (flagging out) was one of the worst things that happened in (the history of) Norwegian shipping (captain, supply vessel).[/I]
[I]As a young sailor, I was on a vessel trading regularly in the US, Asia and Australia. Once arriving in the Manila harbour, we saw all the Norwegian flags in that port. These were the glory days of the Norwegian Merchant Marine. New types of ship owners are mainly financial persons without any close bonds to the shipping life. We call them asset players. The flagging out hit two groups, first the deck, engineering and catering staff and more recently the officers (chief engineer, dry cargo vessel).[/I]
[I]Our social life and working conditions changed radically over a relatively short period of time. We did not get sufficient time to get used to it. The new era brought so many surprises. The newcomers can work for very basic low wages and overtime rates, no social security benefits, long contracts and little time with their families. Many masters are now left alone with crews from many different countries and there are big language problems and social differences. Many of the young (Norwegian) officers just gave up. The older ones are hanging on for their pensions (captain, cargo vessel).[/I]
Those are the “world views” of the real people who survived what you see as a “great supplement.” At least they live in a country that doesn’t enforce upon its citizens their freedom to starve to death under a bridge because they are unemployed and lack health insurance.

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[QUOTE=c.captain;42567]First, we have virtually no US flag foreign going merchant ships anymore (excepting MSP and DoD contracted ships which will always have US mariners) so the idea of an International Registry is pretty moot in this discussion. What is at risk here are US flagged ships in coastwise trade or more importantly, OCS trade. There is clear evidence which bears out that some US shipowners will find loopholes and use false claims to state that US qualified seafarers are not available and then get permission to hire foreign national seafarers with COE licenses (the proposed rulemaking specifically mentions this occuring!). The USA is not the first country where this has occured but that is no excuse at all that it [U][I]MUST[/I][/U] happen here…at least not without a fight![/QUOTE]

International registries are created specifically for the reason that you described.

40

[QUOTE=Steamer;42569]Ask all those unemployed European seafarers how their “international registry” has worked for them. Here’s an old clip for your supplemental reading:

[I]"MANILA, Nov 30 Asia Pulse - More than 10,000 jobs await Filipino seafarers in Norwegian ships with the recognition of the certificates of competence (COC’s) of the Filipino seafarers in Norwegian-registered vessels. "[/I]

And here’s a training opportunity for you:

[I]Norwegian Training Center for seafarers in Manila - [/I][I]maritime Course Program[/I][I]: Cargo and Ship Handling, <ACRONYM title=“Standards for Seafarer’s Training, Certification, and Watch keeping”>STCW-95</ACRONYM> certification. The training centre also oversees and administers a [/I][I]Cadet training[/I][I] ( deck and engine ) programme. Includes several navigational colleges around the Philippines[/I]

And some comments from Norwegian seafarers themselves:
[I]I think that there is somewhat of a lower standard today, for example in important things like maintenance. It is very obvious for some of the officers that I have been working with. It (flagging out) was one of the worst things that happened in (the history of) Norwegian shipping (captain, supply vessel).[/I]
[I]As a young sailor, I was on a vessel trading regularly in the US, Asia and Australia. Once arriving in the Manila harbour, we saw all the Norwegian flags in that port. These were the glory days of the Norwegian Merchant Marine. New types of ship owners are mainly financial persons without any close bonds to the shipping life. We call them asset players. The flagging out hit two groups, first the deck, engineering and catering staff and more recently the officers (chief engineer, dry cargo vessel).[/I]
[I]Our social life and working conditions changed radically over a relatively short period of time. We did not get sufficient time to get used to it. The new era brought so many surprises. The newcomers can work for very basic low wages and overtime rates, no social security benefits, long contracts and little time with their families. Many masters are now left alone with crews from many different countries and there are big language problems and social differences. Many of the young (Norwegian) officers just gave up. The older ones are hanging on for their pensions (captain, cargo vessel).[/I]
Those are the “world views” of the real people who survived what you see as a “great supplement.” At least they live in a country that doesn’t enforce upon its citizens their freedom to starve to death under a bridge because they are unemployed and lack health insurance.[/QUOTE]

Are you kidding me? Who in the hell is this guy? Norwegians are working 2 weeks on and 4 weeks off with some of the highest standards of living I’ve ever seen on a vessel, while getting paid year round and you expect me to believe that things are getting worse based on what you copied and pasted here, and coined as a world view? You need to take a trip over here and talk to a few of these guys and not just read about it. There are Filipinos, a few, but they’re making the job better and from what I am hearing, they love having them onboard. How many vessels have you worked on that have a turn down service?