Puget Sound Pilots and Sailboats

Professional Mariner Forum
21

Is altering course for a ship’s stern sufficient? Will it be detectable by the ship?

How much time is “ample time”?

Sierra Golf is a good example of a place where you will have to deal with us when we’re under sail.

I’ve seen sailboats coming out of Shilshole southbound detect commercial traffic coming out of Elliot Bay northbound for the first time at far less than a nautical mile.

Ships moving in Elliot Bay and commercial traffic going into or out of the locks are not in the lanes and do not, therefore, appear to be constrained by the lanes. Tugboats virtually ignore the lanes. I’m sure commercial guys all have good reasons for doing so, and so be it, but my point is that “staying out their way” because they’re in the lanes is charmingly naive.

And the fact that you (container ships, cruise ships, tugboats, Argosy tours, push barges, fishing boats) are not in the lanes (or, in some cases, participating in Seattle Traffic) has a direct impact on the COLREGS.

And I’ll be happy to take a call after I’ve screwed up. Until this thread, calling me on 13 would have been an exercise in futility. Asking around at my club, I got the response that 13 and 14 are for commercial traffic only, and we don’t belong on either channel.

22

[QUOTE=Jammer Six;147478]Is altering course for a ship’s stern sufficient? Will it be detectable by the ship?

How much time is “ample time”?

Sierra Golf is a good example of a place where you will have to deal with us when we’re under sail.

I’ve seen sailboats coming out of Shilshole southbound detect commercial traffic coming out of Elliot Bay northbound for the first time at far less than a nautical mile.

Ships moving in Elliot Bay and commercial traffic going into or out of the locks are not in the lanes and do not, therefore, appear to be constrained by the lanes. Tugboats virtually ignore the lanes. I’m sure commercial guys all have good reasons for doing so, and so be it, but my point is that “staying out their way” because they’re in the lanes is charmingly naive.

And the fact that you (container ships, cruise ships, tugboats, Argosy tours, push barges, fishing boats) are not in the lanes (or, in some cases, participating in Seattle Traffic) has a direct impact on the COLREGS.

And I’ll be happy to take a call after I’ve screwed up. Until this thread, calling me on 13 would have been an exercise in futility. Asking around at my club, I got the response that 13 and 14 are for commercial traffic only, and we don’t belong on either channel.[/QUOTE]

With regards ships in the TSS, when I was sailing, if we could see a ship in the lanes we waited till it passed before we tried to cross. Meanwhile I would maneuver the boat in such a way that showed I had no intention of crossing ahead.

The guys I sailed with were all professional mariners and we just stayed out of the way of commercial traffic. We were out to enjoy ourselves on the water and I am not enjoying myself in front of a commercial vessel.

How close you want to get depends the conditions and your experience. Figure out a safe distance, double it and add half again.

23

[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;147483]With regards ships in the TSS, when I was sailing, [B][U][I]if we could see a ship[/I][/U][/B] in the lanes we waited till it passed before we tried to cross. Meanwhile I would maneuver the boat in such a way that showed I had no intention of crossing ahead.[/QUOTE]

That’s why I want to talk to Puget Sound Pilots.

24 
Obviously there are none on here for you to talk to. Why not strike up a conversation with one on channel 13, or alternatively an email or telephone?

Advice on this issue is good in this thread, it’s applicable anywhere in the U.S.

25

13 is bridge to bridge. Be it the cockpit of your sailboat, a tugs wheelhouse, or a lift bridge. You should be monitoring it any time you are out for a cruise for safety. 16 is important too but I would rather have a radio on 13 than 16 while out in or near shipping lanes or busy channels.

I have never been in Puget Sound but I would guess that tugs dont go in the lanes is so they are out if the ships way and not getting run over.

Dont forget the unofficial rule if the road: if its bigger than you, stay out of its way.

26

[QUOTE=Jammer Six;147478]

Ships moving in Elliot Bay and commercial traffic going into or out of the locks are not in the lanes and do not, therefore, appear to be constrained by the lanes. Tugboats virtually ignore the lanes. I’m sure commercial guys all have good reasons for doing so, and so be it, but my point is that [I][B][U]“staying out their way” because they’re in the lanes is charmingly naive.[/U][/B][/I]

And the fact that you (container ships, cruise ships, tugboats, Argosy tours, push barges, fishing boats) are not in the lanes (or, in some cases, participating in Seattle Traffic) has a direct impact on the COLREGS.

And I’ll be happy to take a call after I’ve screwed up. Until this thread, calling me on 13 would have been an exercise in futility. Asking around at my club, I got the response that 13 and 14 are for commercial traffic only, and we don’t belong on either channel.[/QUOTE]

Based upon your statement, you are a prime candidate for becoming the organ donor that Quimby was referring to.
Sierra Golf is the busiest area in the Sound. Every south-sound ship has to pass there, as well as being the “turn into Elliott Bay” point for every Seattle bound vessel, and where the northbounders out of Seattle join the lanes. couple that with the geographic squeeze from West Point, and every Seattle bound vessel from or to the Locks, makes it very congested.

Why take your chances sailing there? Go north of Meadow Point, where the lanes aren’t squeezing, and there is significantly less traffic.

Now as far as TSS actual participation, When I’m towing, I must participate in Seattle Traffic, whether I’m in the lanes or not. However, like most tugs between SG and T, unless we are going a considerable north or south distance, I stay just outside the lanes.

Why? For the exact same reasons you have been given. The ships don’t need to be worrying about what I may do. The pilot has enough on his plate, to worry about a tug going 1/3 his speed isn’t necessary. Also wake damage from the ship is a real concern. I’ve parted 4 push wires and one of my two safety lines in a ferry swell before. Not a real comforting situation.

If you can see the ship in the distance, he will pass much sooner than you think.

Crossing the lanes with ship traffic bears special watchfulness. I’ve had tows that take nearly 45 minutes to cross the traffic lanes. That ship southbound at Apple Cove Pt?
He passed astern before I finished getting across the entire way.

So, play near the lanes around Sierra Golf and West Point, and you are setting yourself and others up for potential disaster.

27

[QUOTE=Jammer Six;147492]That’s why I want to talk to Puget Sound Pilots.[/QUOTE]

Well, there are only so many ways to say keep clear. No pilot is going to tell you how to sail your boat.

I’d say in general, in good conditions; small craft less then about five miles and within, say 60 degrees on either side of the ship’s center line / track are being monitored by the bridge team very closely. If your boat is within this cone it’s likely best to be moving out of the way.

Large ships and tugs with a tow don’t like to have to weave around traffic. In congested areas a very common technique is to set the course that will both get the ship to the destination and encounter the fewest boats. The ship then holds that course and waits for any remaining small craft on that path to move out the way. If they don’t move, the large vessel holds course as long as safely possible so as not to confuse other craft, then try to dodge at the last minute. But the dodging at the last minute is a crap shoot no one likes because the small craft might move any direction in the last few seconds.

28

[QUOTE=Tom_Tugboat;147496]Why take your chances sailing there? [/QUOTE]

Any number of reasons.

[QUOTE=Tom_Tugboat;147496]So, play near the lanes around Sierra Golf and West Point, and you are setting yourself and others up for potential disaster.[/QUOTE]

That’s why I’m here. I’m glad there’s one person here who appears to understand that, and appears to understand that Sierra Golf is not the same as some nameless stretch of water in another place.

I understand that you all think we should just get off the water. I understand that you all regard the Sound the same way truckers regard the interstate.

But I’m there. We’re there. WAFI is one of the best of us. He’s an attorney who teaches classes on the COLREGS. I belong to a bareboat club, Windworks, in Seattle, and among our club, I’m one of the most experienced and best trained. And I thought Tango was Yankee-Tango. That’s what you’re facing, and you’re facing us by the thousands.

Even if you convinced me, there’s a line of five hundred right behind me in my club alone waiting to charter the boat. And none of them have come here asking you how best to deal with the lanes.

We sail past Sierra Golf number one because we want to, and while that reason stands by itself, because our boats are at Shilshole, and everything from Quartermaster Harbor to Eagle Harbor to Elliott Bay to Blake Island is past Sierra Golf. Not to even mention racing. Sometimes we race north, sometimes we race south. But remember that first reason-- because we want to. It’s why we spend so much time, treasure and effort sailing in the first place. Because we want to. That isn’t going to change, and if bad attitudes are some of the things we’re facing, then we’ll face them right alongside thunderstorms and rain, and simply accept them as something that we can’t change. Won’t matter, won’t change anything, it certainly won’t change where we want to go, nor how many of us want to go there. And you’ll still be facing thousands of us.

If you think telling me “stay out of the way” or that there is a “law of tonnage” (one of WAFI’s favorite targets of ridicule on our forum) is going to solve the issues at Sierra Golf, I’ll simply dismiss you and your opinions, and continue looking for answers. Because those answers tell me that while you may take that attitude onto a bridge with you, you don’t act on it, or there would be a lot more wrecks under Sierra Golf.

I’d still like to hear from a Puget Sound Pilot. In fact, if a Puget Sound Pilot wants to join me, I’ll buy him (or her) and his spouse dinner at Anthony’s, and we’ll chat about Sierra Golf.

Quimby 29

30

[QUOTE=Jammer Six;147522]
If you think telling me “stay out of the way” or that there is a “law of tonnage” (one of WAFI’s favorite targets of ridicule on our forum) is going to solve the issues at Sierra Golf, I’ll simply dismiss you and your opinions, and continue looking for answers. Because those answers tell me that while you may take that attitude onto a bridge with you, you don’t act on it, or there would be a lot more wrecks under Sierra Golf.
[/QUOTE]

Good luck. If you see my tug coming, please stay right in front of me. Your “We want to” and a quarter will allow your loved ones to call an attorney. I don’t mind making fiberglas splinters.

To hear from a pilot, you will need to call the pilotage association. He will tell you exactly what the flyer that was linked to earlier said. If one posted here, I’m sure they would have chimed in by now, which was also told to you above.
The PSVTS rec boat flyer link posted above gives the same advice.

Actually from the sounds of it, Post #9 CaptD appears to be a pilot. Or maybe he just stayed in a Holiday Inn Express once.

Remember one fact. A freighter doing 20 knots will cover a mile in three (3) minutes. How far can you go in that time? Victoria Clipper does that same mile in a minute and a half.

Whoever WAFI is, needs to refresh his class material and teach about VHF 13, 14 & 05A, and include Rule 10, instead of how to protest a race.

Good luck keeping that nice boat of yours nice. It doesn’t seem like it matters much to you.

I’m done. The teachable moment left a while ago.

31

Well, that’s something.

Two things;

When you gain experience sailing, say a Sunfish you develop intuition, tacit knowledge, rules of thumb and so forth, often together called common sense. If you were to switch to a 60 foot full keel sailboat with a single screw diesel then all of a sudden the world looks like a different place.

Problem is when you try to transfer experience based on time with a 30 foot sloop to try deal with large 20 kts motor vessels, some are 1000+ feet, with 100,000 hp, 90 rpm heavy oil diesel engines etc the correct action appears to violate common sense. Think about the difference sailing unencumbered vs having another boat one boat-length away. For a big ship being unencumbered is rare in Puget Sound, one boat length is 600 or more feet. I think that’s why none of the distances being given make sense to you.

Second thing is unsymmetrical information. On the commercial side for the most part the behavior of a large vessel can be predicted. The big container ships for example want to stay in the lanes and make a bee-line to the next waypoint, turn and proceed to the next waypoint. Any ambiguity can be cleared quickly with the VHF. By contrast the behavior of pleasure craft seems almost random. The pilot has no idea what speed or heading a boat will take, if they understand about the TSS lanes or not, the level of situational awareness or sobriety etc. This uncertainly completely changes the situation .

BTW there is a book about this by a former Puget Sound Pilot,"How to Avoid Huge Ships by Captain John W. Trimmer.Oddly it’s become a collectors item because of the title and is hard to find at a good price. I have a copy, lots of good inform, it’s says pretty much what is on this thread. For example here is about the TSS lanes, which matches what the tugboater here said.

"A note of interest: small commercial vessels and tugs with tows many times choose (and are allowed by the VTC) to proceed outside the Traffic Lanes. this leaves the Lanes clear for the much bigger and faster ships. Action by these commercial vessels traveling outside the lanes just might be a hint for you when thinking about your own safety.

32

Y’all need to stop making sense. Sailor boy needs to speak to a pilot and tell him what’s what!

33

Most mariners are busy as hell and spend long periods of time away from home. The last thing they want to do in there free time is meet with a complete stranger and discuss/debate rules of the road and crossing situations with sailboats. Your notion that commercial vessels dismiss sailboats and advise they just go home is crazy talk. Most mariners grow grey hair trying to maneuver there vessel safely and if a collision occurs you can be sure the commercial mariner will be jailed or fined by the USCG no matter how silly the pleasure boats actions were.

Loose your ego and be a team player like everyone else. If you can avoid crossing a vessel which can only navigate safely within a channel than for god sakes do so. Its common sense just like everyone on this thread has tried to tell you.

34

I’d still like to hear from a Puget Sound Pilot. In fact, if a Puget Sound Pilot wants to join me, I’ll buy him (or her) and his spouse dinner at Anthony’s, and we’ll chat about Sierra Golf.

You heard from one. Like I said, give our office a call and we’ll set something up. Either myself or one of my partners would be glad to visit your yacht club and answer any questions you may have.