Nuclear Energy Generation

I would be interested to get our US colleagues viewpoint on their nuclear power generation. According to the Eia, you have 93 active reactors spread over 54 power plants throughout 28 states which provide 20% of total generation. According to Google, there are 440 reactors spread over 31 countries which provides 9% of the world’s electricity which indicates that the US has 21% of this capacity. There are very few on the west coast.

The reason I ask is that I am pro nuclear and see this as the partial solution to our baseload woes in Australia. We are surrounded by woke individuals in this country who have been conned by the renewables silver bullet. We have one small reactor in this country which is a state-of-the-art 20 megawatt multi-purpose reactor that uses low enriched uranium (LEU) fuel to achieve a range of nuclear medicine, research, scientific, industrial and production goals. We are systematically destroying our thermal base load generation……be it coal or gas whilst China consumes in excess of 4 billion tonnes pa.

It is a very “hot” point of discussion in this country and we continue to acquiesce to the woke community.

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I too am pro-nuclear (including submarines), but only if it can compete.

There’s only one reason to push nuclear fueled electricity in Australia (beyond its obvious ability to provide continuous base load power) and that’s to reduce CO2 emissions which it does very well. If we remove the need to reduce CO2 emissions, it loses overwhelmingly to coal.

It is increasingly obvious that Australia cannot influence the global emissions of CO2 at all (1% of global emissions) in the face of the vast and growing emissions of China, India, USA, Indonesia, Russia etc which have all ceased being concerned about such emissions and instead produce power to reduce cost. So we shouldn’t try. We should instead say we’ll do it when those major emitters do it … and not before. You first big boys.

My personal view, well based in science, is that the whole global boiling issue caused by humans is a giant scam designed to hobble those fooled by it. But if I say that here, I get suspended.

So ignore that paragraph you just read.

To sing the praises of the massive reserves of coal we have sitting on top of the ground, here’s an article which shows the relative costs. Brown coal wins by a mile and we have lots of it with massive power stations churning it out all day.

A quote from the article, “brown coal plants in Victoria are still offering to supply wholesale electricity at $8 per megawatt hour (which is 0.8c per kilowatt hour).”

and

“Wind and solar power, with their crazy negative prices, don’t count because they’re subsidized up-the-kazoo. Their real cost is paid through other hidden means. It’s either that, or the negative prices tell us wind and solar power are so awful you have pay people to take those toxic electrons away.”

https://joannenova.com.au/2024/07/inflation-be-damned-brown-coal-power-is-just-1c-per-kilowatt-hour-in-2024/

Oh, for some common sense.

P.S. I see the AI big boys are buying up US nuclear plants to generate the power they will need to run their data banks. That would seem to be a ringing endorsement of nuclear energy in the US.

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I consider myself an environmentalist. Although it isn’t legally required in the area where I live we recycle religiously. 100% of our trash gets segregated to hopefully be recycled or disposed of properly. Almost all of our organics gets put into a big blender, chopped tiny pieces in a liquid & poured into our compost areas on our properties. We live in an energy efficient home & buy energy efficient appliances & home goods when practical. At work, I go beyond my companys & different countries environmental policies. And I support our nuclear energy sectors. Besides hydro-electricity, energy doesn’t get better than nuclear when looking for bang for the buck & making lots of it imo.

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Sand_Pebble,

Thank you and hats off for the recycling. I struggle to understand my country’s negativity towards nuclear power…….why are we any different to other countries who manage their waste even within relatively small landmasses. The French are now recycling their spent fuel rods separating recoverable uranium and plutonium and using the plutonium in certain reactor types.

Australia has large deposits of uranium and many sources of cooling water. It is very frustrating.

There does not appear to be many reactors on the US west coast. Do they feed off the east coast installations?

One of the points made by Matt Yglesias in the linked post is that debating the issue as part of the culture wars is unlikely to be productive.

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A seismic difference?

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KC,

It is self evident that the woke culture lacks practicality and a grasp of reality……they swim in a fluid of idealism and when it all goes to shit they mutter “oh well”. By which time, it is too late.

Our recent federal election was a landslide to the left partly because the right leader was pushing the nuclear policy and also for other reasons of personality.

There should be a national referendum on this very matter…..do you support a nuclear power generation policy? Take the pissant Politicians out of the equation.

I found your link very interesting.


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Of course! I should have realised.

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After the Chernobyl TV docu-drama in 2019, the BBC’s science & stats podcast followed up with 2 episodes on the facts and numbers. First one covers the Chernobyl facts, second one covers the power source comparison shown in the graphic above.
Worth a listen…

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Earthquakes. The west coast is getting closer to the east coast. We don’t need another Fukushima. Speaking of Fukushima, what bright spark figured it was OK to put the emergency DGs underground on the ocean side of the plant?

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It certainly does. Very interesting.

It asks, “What are the safest and cleanest sources of energy?”

That’s not the whole story of course, so wrong question. What’s the cheapest 24/7 sources of energy? That would be more useful.

As for “cleanest”, it seems the only parameter is “Greenhouse gas emissions” which again is a wrong question and misleading. My contention is GHGs are a nett benefit for civilisation and do not constitute dirtiness in any way - CO2 is tasteless, colourless, odourless etc. and is essential food for all living things.

Nuclear naturally scores well regardless, until we ask for cost comparisons. For Australia with battalions of wokesters ready to march on the first bulldozers ( whilst studiously ignoring the bulldozers clear-felling pristine hilltops for bird chompers) we would be asking for trouble. I was a cadet at the Naval College, Jervis Bay when the land was cleared for Australia’s first nuclear power station. I was quite proud we were joining the nuclear club. It was cancelled, of course, but there were no protesters so that was the time we should have pressed on.

I doubt the BBC is capable of producing a factual presentation on this controversial subject. The statistics don’t sound right to me but, hey, we were told by an expert so don’t argue. Deaths decades later from the lingering effects of air pollution from coal plants in the tens of thousands doesn’t add up.

Have you noticed photographs these days to illustrate evil coal fired plants seldom show the smoke stack issuing nothing visible at all (because they clean the exhaust) so they try to make steam from cooling towers look black by snapping the shot at late twilight against the red glowing sky? We are being treated as idiots.

Possibly the same bright spark who was assured by the experts that the seawall built to protect from tsunamis was adequately higher than needed. They were right for all the other tsunamis, of course.

Sometimes I have thought I was going crazy as I seemed to be the only one that noticed this.
Thank heavens other folk have seen through this lie.
The other one that gets me is .
Last month was the wettest/ dryest/warmers/coldest since 19##

Ok then it was wetter/dryer etc in 19## then

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“I can’t see the vapor therefore it can’t hurt me” - No living tankerman…

This devastating fly ash spill happened pretty close to me, and is just one example of the myriad hazards coal plants pose to their local environments, to say nothing of the wider environmental effects of the invisible particulates they spew.

Sure, there are technologies out there that make coal power plants a lot cleaner, but it’s been nothing but resistance from the industry to actually install those scrubbers etc, and I can’t imagine you complaining if our current administration rolled the regulations back that require them. They’re expensive, but they do help. Without them, coal is wildly irresponsible. If the health effects of burning coal were taken into account, it would never have been nearly as cheap as it’s been advertised to be.

But at least we have those new systems being installed around the country. I’m not sure Australia is so progressive.

As a self-described environmentalist, I’m staunchly pro-nuclear, and just about everybody I talk to from just about every political corner is pretty much in agreement. I’ve had a hard time finding anybody who needs convincing that nuclear is a good idea. Nuclear power in this country, and in general, has a couple problems - principally engineering and legislative problems, at this point.

First, Generation II power plants (which are pretty much all operating commercial plants, and include Three Mile Island and Fukushima) were built with what seemed to be reasonable engineering philosophies that turned out to have unanticipated problems.

One of the first problems is energy density. Our first reactors were designed for naval use, and a naval powerplant needs to be compact and powerful. Our first reactor engineers and operators were, therefore, trained by the Navy and knew how to design things for the Navy. When the call came out to design commercial plants, they essentially took naval designs and scaled them up. The problem with an energy-dense reactor of the type necessary for naval applications is that you need to keep it carefully controlled, and if you lose the ability to control the heat it generates (such as by losing water circulation, like Three Mile Island and Fukushima) you have created a potential “dirty bomb.”

The second philosophical problem was the belief that, if you simply piled enough active safety systems on top of a reactor, nothing could feasibly go wrong. Experience has shown this to be completely incorrect - these plants designed to be hyper-safe proved that, when things really went wrong, it was frequently impossible to determine what the true problem was amid a deluge of alarms and blinking indicators.

The third problem is the regulatory body that was developed in response to the perceived needs of these Gen II plants. If you’re building an energy-dense reactor, you have to build it to extremely tight tolerances. If you’re building a system reliant on a pile of actively-driven safety systems, you have to build them to be perfectly reliable. Proving that your new gigawatts of Gen II generating capacity have been built to extremely tight tolerances with perfectly reliable safety systems is e x p e n s i v e.

The solutions are already deep into the design phase and in some cases already in limited service. Generation III and III+ designs, which came about principally in reaction to the TMI 2 meltdown and first started entering service in the '90s, differ from Gen II primarily by using a “passive safety” philosophy instead of “active safety.” Many Gen II plants will happily run themselves right out of control if you don’t have a steady hand on the highly complicated controls. Gen III+ plants, by contrast, will happily shut themselves right down if you don’t have a steady hand on the greatly reduced controls. This simple paradigm shift improves their safety by orders of magnitude. It’s like a train’s emergency brakes - you have to apply air pressure to release them. A failure is what activates the safety mechanisms. In reactor design, this often means failsafe systems that are gravity or convection driven and require no pumps or powered valves. These reactor designs are superb and would be great to mass produce.

Engineers are working on Gen IV designs now, though, and have been for a while. While there’s no real definition of a “Gen IV” design, one of the biggest paradigm changes for them has been the intent to design reactors that cannot self-destruct, no matter how badly you drive them, because they lack the energy density to blow up in the first place. If you’re building a nuclear power plant, chances are real estate is the least of your concerns. If you want to build a gigawatt reactor, there’s no reason you can’t just… build the reactor bigger. A bigger reactor of the same power will be much harder, if not impossible, to catastrophically overheat. The loss of efficiency is hardly a problem when the fuel is such a small part of your operating costs.

But, in the interim since Gen II plants were the new hotness, the regulatory environment has grown to manage them. This means that anything nuclear has to go through the Raised-on-Gen-II Nuclear Regulatory Commission. There’s been a lot of effort put into deciding how much to loosen the regulations for newer, safer designs, but I haven’t seen as much progress on actually loosening them. The high-quality materials required, meanwhile, have also gotten a lot more expensive since the bulk of our plants were built in the 70s and 80s. So, cost is now a much bigger issue than it used to be simply for the up-front investment.

But what about nuclear waste? Frankly I see no problem with encasing it in concrete and dropping it into oceanic subduction zones. Hardly anything lives in the deep ocean trenches, the currents are stagnant, and if you wrap it in enough cheap cement, it’ll be returned to the Earth from whence it came before any radioactive pollution could occur.

Tangentially, there’s also a lot of hype around small modular reactors of the type NuScale and Oklo are publicly working on. While I’ve invested in them (and they’re currently by far my most successful investments!) I’m not personally fully convinced. Building an itty bitty nuclear plant requires most of the same sorts of materials, the same sorts of trained operators, and the same sort of oversight as building a monster like Palo Verde near my current home. If you need to have a guy run a reactor control room, the difference in reactor size makes about as much difference as it does for the watch officer on a handysize tanker vs a ULCC. Building small reactors costs you the economies of scale that I would expect future nuclear power to need to be truly viable.

So, TLDR, coal dirty and not as cheap as it pretends, nuclear good and not as cheap as it should be.

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Did I say that? Nooooooo.

The vapour certainly contains lots of great plant food which you rely on to stay alive. Some idiots are even saying that CO2 should be removed from exhaust gasses so the plants will have to breathe harder for some silly reason.

Ooooooh! Watch out. Those invisibles being spewed are worse than the visible soot that’s been cleaned for decades. I think we should have a very strong word with those gazillion volcanoes disobeying your edicts, many hidden unseen under the sea.

It seems the EPA is on my side on this one.

You quote CNN at me. And later, The Sydney Morning Herald! Once a great masthead, now a sodden wet rag. Not the most reliable source of climate science.

You can be assured that Australia is run by the same brand of communists hell bent on destroying everything they touch as have been infesting every other western nation for ages. The trouble for them is that real life is conservative. Truth actually matters. Collectivists (communists) think they can change the world’s temperature by passing laws and inflicting them on evil industrialist and those ordinary people called citizens, workers, families. Sadly for them, the truth happens regardless.

Coal fired power is the cheapest. Chew on that.

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Very well put.

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One of the first problems is energy density.
Are you suggesting we need to develop something where E < mc squared? Or are you saying a bigger diameter reactor is better then a smaller one with the same output?

All power reactors in the USA have negative moderator coefficients. That is, the hotter they get, the more difficult it is to maintain fission. So the concern is not that they “run away”, its removing the heat that drives most of the safety system designs. The newer gen have passive emergency core cooling systems, that rely on gravity rather then pumps (and DG Emerg backup power) to provide this cooling.

This means that anything nuclear has to go through the Raised-on-Gen-II Nuclear Regulatory Commission.
Unfortunately, not every corporation has the integrity to avoid cutting corners when it comes to public safety. The NRC provides a vital oversight, although at times they seem to be a little to inflexible.

I kinda Barney-fied the description here, but I meant the latter; a physically larger reactor of the same output will take longer to overheat in a casualty and will generally be more forgiving of transients, other factors being equal. This becomes significant in a light water reactor loss-of-coolant incidents because even with the control rods in and the fission reaction stopped, the fission byproducts remaining in the fuel continue generating heat for days. Keep all the fuel and those resulting fission products packed nice and tight and the core is more space efficient (like you’d need in a submarine) but less resistant to meltdown and hydrogen explosions. This may not be feasible for PWRs/BWRs for physics and engineering reasons that are beyond my boat-driving skill, but that’s why things like pebble bed reactors are appealing in that they simply lack the energy density to melt themselves no matter how badly you fumble its operation.

Just so. The China Syndrome was depressingly realistic. I wouldn’t trust Capital to spend any extra dime on safety than it thinks it can get away with. I’m in no way against the existence of stringent regulation for technologies with the capacity for so much potential harm; it’s just gotta be balanced against the harm posed by the alternatives. Such as, making a new Gen III+ plant so system-redundant and minutely inspected to avoid the smallest radiation leaks etc, that the power company just builds a coal plant instead that puts mercury, arsenic, sulfur, silica - as well as radioactive thorium, radium, uranium etc depending on the coal! - into the air, to say nothing of carbon dioxide.

(All of which Jughead is apparently eager for his kids to breathe so he can own the libs. You do you, buddy.)

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Run for the hills! Cover your noses! Don’t breathe it! You’ll die.

Aaaah the Lefty collectivists just love to exaggerate. And fear and loathing are their (your) aims. Over-the-top language is so easy to spew out and the world will end tomorrow. But it never does.

Are all those nasty-sounding chemicals in quantities that cause significant harm? If so, where’s your EPA banning or limiting them? Why aren’t we all dropping dead?

Oh, and radioactivity is perfectly natural. If you live and walk around you are being blasted by radio activity. Eat a banana? Radio active. Live with another person? Radio active. Fly in an aircraft? More radio activity.

More CO2 is better for the whole world. Did you read what I sent you about your EPA removing CO2 from the nasty list? Burn, baby burn that coal, oil and gas.

The thing I want to stop my kids and grandkids from breathing is this Lefty, communist, claptrap idiocy being spewed from every school and institution in the western world and infests our politicians. We should not fear sensible engineering solutions to the betterment of society. We should reject fear porn belching out of the mouths of those infected by the doom, disaster and devastation supposedly descending on us from living healthy prosperous lives.

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