After re reading my above post I am not saying there is anything wrong with the helmsman changing over, just that it is so rare to be noticeable.
It’s definitely questionable but it’s a question of probabilities.
The rudder moved scenario relies on unfamiliar and unknown forces, both underwater and above.
The rudder did not move scenario on the other hand is much more concrete.
I suppose we will have to wait until the full report comes out but surely before the PR the NTSB knew if the rudder moved as ordered or not.
These things are recorded aren’t they?
Even if that information is not recorded then the VDR would have had the Pilot questioning why the rudder had not moved as ordered. Standard procedure to check your orders are being carried out.
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Yes, I think they do know. The preliminary report focuses on the switchboards and the power loss, the things most people want to know.
It requires reading between the lines to see there’s an assumption being made throughout the report that there were no issues with the steering.
Of course reading between the lines is not a sure bet and leaves some ambiguity.
An “Alt-F” search for the term “rudder” give 8 results.
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Yes I suppose you are right KC.
It’s only people like us that want to dig deep into the weeds.
Most folk will just take the blackout as the cause without digging deeper.
Unless of course they are the swivel eyed tinfoil hat wearing brigade.
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Love it!
… designated emergency steering pump (no. 3) would have been available to turn the rudder at its low-speed setting. (When operated alone using emergency electrical power, steering pump no. 3 was designed to run at a lower speed, turning the rudder at a slower rate than with all pumps.) However, without the propeller turning, the rudder would have been less effective.
The wording in Italics is vague. Looks like the rudder speed being referred to.
The wording in bold refers to the pump (motor) speed. I find this strange that they would have a 2 speed motor.
I think pump rating/capacity of all pumps are the same. With 1 on they meet the ‘aux steering’ provision in the rules. With 2 on they meet the requirements and with 3 better than the requirements that is SOP for maneuvering.
There is a lot that is known by the authors of the report that has been withheld. A transcript of the audio recorded on the bridge would answer a lot questions posed here. It is possible to filter out the cacophony of alarms that would have been activated to get a clearer recording of what was said and by whom.
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IMHO
The cacophony of noise that is generated on a bridge really is an issue that needs to be addressed.
Does every system need to have a very loud alarm ?
The problem is that every manufacturer thinks that their system is SO important that it needs attention and NOW.
We could learn a lot from the aviation world, but not everything as they have a crisis mounting, with the priority of alarms.
Let’s wind back 30 to 40 years to where aviation was then but let’s not advance any further.
Aviators like Sully are now becoming a dying breed. The modern aviators are more systems managers rather than pilots and the blunt truth is that aviation would be safer if you took away the warm bodies at the front.
I mean if you can land an unmanned F18 on a carrier then WTF are we doing with 2 alarm acknowledges sitting in the front who would struggle to land the plane even in good conditions.
Unfortunately shipping has not got anywhere near this level of automation yet and even when big players like Rolls Royce (Konniingsberg) have got involved it is a pipe dream as far away from reality as it was in the late 70s when I sailed on VLCCs as a cadet. There was talk then of taking off the crew and having a crew of perhaps 3 deck officers and a single engineer.
I see beautiful futuristic videos of unmanned ships docking with tugs and maybe a pilot in a control centre somewhere remote.
Who the F is going to throw the heaving line 
Sorry guys a bit off topic and a bit of a rant.
But young guys and gals still at sea today, your job is as safe as mine was almost 40 years ago.
Young guys and gals looking for flight deck jobs in aviation better start looking over their collective shoulders as the only, yes only, reason you are still there is because public opinion would not permit an unmanned flight deck.
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I have always wondered what the public’s reaction would be if an administration allowed an unknown company, registered in a obscure country, using every trick in a very large book to remain incognito, to sail an unmanned vessel to make a coastal voyage.
At the subsequent enquiry who do we hang, a transistor?
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My understanding is that trim induced by squat varies according to block coefficient. Tankers trim by the head, frigates by the stern and container ships more or less sink evenly.
Sure, why not?
Oh, here’s why, in 1980 1294 people died in 48 airliner accidents. In 2020, 137 people died in 8 accidents. Pilots truly were a dying breed back in the day, so were their passengers.
What I would like to do is row back on the way alarms are presented on a bridge as opposed to a flight deck
And also no one saw or pointed out
- automation has improved so much that aviators are now redundant when in flight,
- if aviators would just keep their hands under their bottoms except when accepting alarms and do nothing else then flight safety would nay has mightily improved as per the above report.
All this of course misses the blatantly obvious which equates to my above rant about who the F is going to throw the heaving line
Who the F is going to get the airplane from the stand to the runway and back again.
Sorry I have taken this thread waay off topic
Alarms need to be sorted out on the bridge of a ship so your senses are not overwhelmed by the continuous loud alarms sounding.
As a pilot you have to detach yourself from this assault to your senses and try to continue conning the ship.
As do Masters when operating without a pilot and in some cases that can be worse as The Master is a part of that ship and trends to become a part of attempting to get on top of the situation whereas a pilot can detach themselves and devote his or her attention to keeping the thing pointed in the right direction
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Yes you have, and onto a topic about which you are totally clueless.
Thanks Steamer
But please read NTSB reports in recent years.
Or any airplane manufacturers that are interested in reports such as Airbus and Boeing.
The amount of times that Pilots have made errors that have caused crashes far exceeds equipment failures.
AF 447 comes to mind immediately, please read.
Go back further to Tenerife in 1977 or US Air in
US air 405 with a drunk captain, no it never came out but well known in the industry.
We are not immune either, a BA Concorde flaming out on the taxiway at Heathrow as it had run out of fuel taxiing in. No that never made the public attention either
I could go on for ages but won’t.
In all fairness I mentioned Sully but please look up BA 009 in 82 for some fantastic airmanship
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wait till Ai is in charge, lol
The IMO and class have done nothing about this, now that bridges are covered in PC’s hidden everywhere its about time the IMO and Class realized there are PC’s on the bridge and they can make any alarm they like for any reason and any sound.
Multiple alarms test individual and bridge team situational awareness. Anyone who has any experience at all has been on the bridge when the lights go off. Has waited the minute for the EG to kick in, has evaluated and prioritized the navigation- collision situation. And has gone about canceling alarms
I think, and I hope with the bridge ahead getting big in the window, for the next 2-4 minutes all I care about is what controls do I have. As distracting as the noise is my immediate focus is do I have a rudder and do I have an engine.
Then, with the controls I have right now, can I miss the bridge?
If no, what can I do to mitigate the damage of the allision
Getting out of position in the channel with a an allision with the bridge a real possibility I really don’t care much about the alarms right now. I trust the engineers are doing their job.
Hopefully in 3-4 minutes there will be plenty of time to acknowledge alarms, get a report from the engineers and re evaluate the situation
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