New Regulations?

[QUOTE=tugsailor;171392]The T.J. Hooper is the seminal case that basically holds that owners must adopt the best available proven technology for safe navigation without waiting for regulations to catch up to technological advances.[/QUOTE]

Sounds like good legal precedent for the families of the crew to use in a wrongful death lawsuit against Tote…

[QUOTE=z-drive;171490]So, to be clear: none of what happens…in aviation counts here.[/QUOTE]

I would beg to differ. The airlines had problems like this year’s ago that they overcame because of massive public outcry and we could learn a lot from them. Bridge Resource Management was basically created by the airlines for use in cockpits many years before being used on ships. I don’t mind pointing out to the occasional polite airline pilot why some of the things they do to make their industry safer doesn’t apply to shipping in exchange for some decent ideas they’ve floated our way. (Especially that it is far, far easier to avoid a hurricane in a jet at 350kts than in a ship at 20kts and routing around a big storm costs ships days instead of an hour.)

They also have one big advantage over us, pilot solidarity through their singular organization (union?) the ALPA.

[QUOTE=z-drive;171423]The main problem is we all have “masters overriding authority” so ultimately it’s our fault for not saying no. Jeaux has us by the balls.[/QUOTE]

Just like Stop Work Authority. According to the Chevron posters: “It’s your [B]Responsibility[/B] and you have the Authority.” (I always maintained they worded that backwards, you must have the authority before it can be your responsibility but my point is you can clearly see their intention by their wording.)

If you use SWA or Master’s Overriding Authority you’re very likely to be fired the next time you file a report wrong (since they can’t fire you for using SWA or MOA) but if you don’t it’s YOUR fault something went wrong.

^^^ Ding ding ding! We have a winner!

[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;171560]I would beg to differ. The airlines had problems like this year’s ago that they overcame because of massive public outcry and we could learn a lot from them. Bridge Resource Management was basically created by the airlines for use in cockpits many years before being used on ships. I don’t mind pointing out to the occasional polite airline pilot why some of the things they do to make their industry safer doesn’t apply to shipping in exchange for some decent ideas they’ve floated our way. (Especially that it is far, far easier to avoid a hurricane in a jet at 350kts than in a ship at 20kts and routing around a big storm costs ships days instead of an hour.)

They also have one big advantage over us, pilot solidarity through their singular organization (union?) the ALPA.[/QUOTE]

You always take everything out of context. If we’re talking about changing culture and the “system,” then yes. But for analyzing what happened we don’t need aviation “experts” discussing the right and wrong way without maritime experience.

[QUOTE=z-drive;171569]But for analyzing what happened we don’t need aviation “experts” discussing the right and wrong way without maritime experience.[/QUOTE]

That’s true, but I’m willing to put up with some Monday morning quarterbacking from professional baseball players (and correcting then when they’re hilariously wrong) to get to those nuggets of useful information. I don’t want to discourage them from posting anything by completely dismissing everything they have to say.

[QUOTE=z-drive;171569]You always take everything out of context. If we’re talking about changing culture and the “system,” then yes. But for analyzing what happened we don’t need aviation “experts” discussing the right and wrong way without maritime experience.[/QUOTE]

I agree, I read aviation forums once in awhile, they deal with the same stuff. And seamanship is seamanship, sometimes the yachties have something to say. I think WAFI has contributed.

Having said that I thought it was annoying that someone thinks they understands what it’s like to sail commercial because they’ve done yacht deliveries. Especially when you tell them no, it’s not like that.

[QUOTE=z-drive;171490]perhaps, But someone is trying to be an expert on all things nautical in the process. They’re just throwing out bait with bullshit ideas attempting to get responses by real Mariners they will probably use themselves on whatever nonsense magazine or website they write for.

So, to be clear: none of what happens on a sailboat, yacht, or especially anywhere in aviation counts here. My workboat experience is even if limited relevance to what goes on when weather routing a 800’ ship, and we don’t have steam plants (I’m also not an engineer) so I’m staying out of that topic as well. Regardless of my legitimate commercial marine experience and formal education in the nautical sciences which includes fellow alumni who were lost in this tragedy, there are many of these yachtsmen or aviators who know better and feel qualified to chime in.[/QUOTE]

Thank you, Z-drive. This is the most sensible comment that I’ve read on this forum, since this whole thing started, over a week ago. It reminds me of a verbal exchange that I once had over the VHF with a British yachtsman, while transiting the English Channel. Incensed, that I refused to significantly alter the course of a 650-foot cargo ship, so he could cross under my bow with his 40-foot sloop, he attempted to sermonize me with his vast and insightful command of the COLREGS. After listening to his childish prattle for one moment too long, I informed him that I lacked the time to explain the Rules of the Road to an amateur yachtsman, then cleared the VHF channel. Sometimes the best counter-argument to a dilettante, is to just turn them off.

[QUOTE=Lookout;171487]Wow! A lot of Monday morning quarterbacking going on here. Is someone interviewing or soliciting for potential “expert witness” work?[/QUOTE]

Disregard this post. The post I was commenting on has been taken down.

So, just for the sake of not starting yet another thread…

Would it really be that bad if the Jones Act had US flagged ships, US crew but not “Made in America”?

It would be a high risk slippery slope to open up the Jones Act to any kind of tinkering.

In theory, it might be a good idea to have a waiver process to bring in certain types of foreign built vessels, but in practice waivers tend to start devouring the rule.

Just look at these absurd OCS waivers for foreign crew to work offshore in the Gulf. Even with high unemployment and underemployment and big wage cuts, the USCG is still passing out those waivers to bring foreign crew in to work in our home waters.

We best leave the Jones Act just like it is. There is not going to be any change in the Jones Act. A few ill informed articles by people with a “free trade” agenda are not going to have any impact.

You don’t think if we are able to build better vessels at 1/2 the price and they burn fuel better and cleaner that more ships would fly the US flag and create more jobs?

[QUOTE=KrustySalt;171714]You don’t think if we are able to build better vessels at 1/2 the price and they burn fuel better and cleaner that more ships would fly the US flag and create more jobs?[/QUOTE]

They would, but a program to assist financing new American built ships is preferable because if you give them an inch they’ll come back later for another inch ad nauseum until they have the whole mile.

[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;171715]They would, but a program to assist financing new American built ships is preferable because if you give them an inch they’ll come back later for another inch ad nauseum until they have the whole mile.[/QUOTE]

Yes, as long as its for building good tonnage that will make money, not super-ferry’s etc.

The good thing is that with the current building “boom” of con-ro ships, box ships, and tankers we’re seeing there is no excuse that there aren’t yards that can build these ships. In theory the cost per ship shouldn’t be going up, bu it anything go down right now with cheap steel and the economy of scale in building multiple ship classes. If i know johnny customer will be buying 5 ships vs 2, I know i have the bills paid for the next 5 years and can afford to make a little less on each one.

[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;171715]They would, but a program to assist financing new American built ships is preferable because if you give them an inch they’ll come back later for another inch ad nauseum until they have the whole mile.[/QUOTE]

Now that I agree with!

[QUOTE=KrustySalt;171714]You don’t think if we are able to build better vessels at 1/2 the price and they burn fuel better and cleaner that more ships would fly the US flag and create more jobs?[/QUOTE]

The biggest costs are fuel and crew. Taxes are also a big issue going against US flag shipping.

Setting aside the few old steamships, the difference in fuel consumption between a new ship or an old ship isn’t that significant. For a variety of reasons, older tugboats often burn less fuel than newer tugs.

The cost of an American crew is the same regardless of where the ship is built. Newer ships may have a bit smaller crew with lower costs.

If foreign built ships are allowed into the Jones Act trade, soon after owners will be clamoring for the right to use cheaper foreign crewmen.