[QUOTE=catherder;126387]This merits the Golden Facepalm award.
x1000…[/QUOTE]
Are you trying to say she [I]isn’t[/I] the most qualified and earned the position?
[QUOTE=Steamer;126395]Are you trying to say she [I]isn’t[/I] the most qualified and earned the position?[/QUOTE]
I confess, I was pretty much playing tennis for most of this thread. As you might have guessed, I don’t like stereotyping, but if anyone deserves to be stereotyped, it’s the typical empty suit flag rank officer who gets that sweet Pentagon job and then retires to a fabulous no-show corporate “consultant” job in government or private industry.
I wonder what her golf handicap is?
Fabulous no-show corporate “consultant” job!? Carnival Cruise Lines would never do a thing like that! That doesn’t happen.
I confess, I was pretty much playing tennis for most of this thread. As you might have guessed, I don’t like stereotyping, but if anyone deserves to be stereotyped, it’s the typical empty suit flag rank officer who gets that sweet Pentagon job and then retires to a fabulous no-show corporate “consultant” job in government or private industry. I wonder what her golf handicap is?
Damn, sounds like I should go commissioned active Navy and shoot for admiral!
[QUOTE=DeadQuarters;126435]Is this some kind of veiled reference to her sexual orientation?[/QUOTE]
She’s married to an old white guy…
[QUOTE=john;126311]I also believe it’s safe to say that all 4-stars promoted in the last 10 (maybe 20?) years got to that position unfairly. Sadly, It’s part of the system… Just like any senior Washington position (and that IS what a 4-star job is) the straight and honest and totally clued-in to this country’s real naval threats are weeded out of the system long before they become 4-stars, senators or Cabinet members.
So, yes, I am making the assumption that she is not fit for the job… but that assumption is based on my knowledge of how the system (a system designed by white men) operates. Looking at our response to China, our shrinking Naval capabilities and the continued total lack of “give a damn” in regards to this nation’s strongest (and essentially FREE!) naval asset (the US Merchant Marine!!), I’m confident that my assumption that she’s unqualified for the job is based solely on the fact that her last job was as 3-star and she didn’t do a single thing to correct the problems we face…, she certainly didn’t do anything significant to support or even reach out to U.S. Merchant Mariners.
So until an Admiral does recognize that their most powerful asset are the men AND women on this very forum… I’m not about to change my opinion that she, along with everyone else currently wearing multiple stars on their shoulder, is NOT the best person for the job.
END OF RANT[/QUOTE]
Having known and worked with senior Flag Officers, I strongly disagree with this self-proclaimed rant. I understand it’s far easier to blanket all Flags with an incompetence label and blame them for our nation’s maritime woes, but it vastly undersells our naval leadership and frankly misplaces blame. While I certainly can’t speak for every Flag - and I will absolutely agree that not all Flags are created equal - for the most part, these leaders are highly intelligent and working hard to improve our Navy given the immense fiscal limitations that have been imposed by our elected officials. These are leaders who have sacrificed immensely to continue serving their nation instead of jumping on a generous retirement once they hit 20 years and moving into a cushy corporate position. Instead, they work to guide our forces through complex geo-strategic, industrial, and fiscal challenges, working to shape the forces of 2020 and beyond. Do they always get it right? No. But the ones I know are dedicated to doing the absolute best they can.
Top leaders routinely emphasize our number one asset (or our asymmetric advantage, as the CNO is prone to calling it) happens to be our All Volunteer Force. Our incredible sailors are resilient, innovative, and will ensure our naval forces remain the most capable in the world. Yes, China is a rising naval power - but its rise is commensurate with its economic status. Don’t blame our military leaders for our nation’s voracious appetite for Chinese-backed loans that helped China become an economic powerhouse. And don’t judge military strategy and policy based on the snippets you may catch on the evening news. While playing armchair quarterback is a great pastime, the nuances of our economic, diplomatic, and military policy with China are not clearly articulated or captured in the rant.
So while I can appreciate a good rant, it demonstrates a lack of understanding of how the system actually works and who the leaders are that are running it. As for VADM Howard, I have personally worked for her, but only for a few months. I feel it would be inappropriate to judge someone based on that short of a time, so will keep my opinions to myself and not base them on anecdotes. Not all leaders are likable - or charismatic. All have strengths and weaknesses which must be balanced in the job for which they, as Flags, are chosen. Realistically, the VCNO position doesn’t need a good ship driver. It requires different skillsets, skills we on this forum can guess at, but are unable to accurately assess whether she has them. Let’s just hope the Flag management team has indeed chosen her because she has the requisite skill set, and not for any other reason.
[COLOR="#808080"][/COLOR][QUOTE=blackshoe;126536]Having known and worked with senior Flag Officers, I strongly disagree with this self-proclaimed rant. I understand it’s far easier to blanket all Flags with an incompetence label and blame them for our nation’s maritime woes, but it vastly undersells our naval leadership and frankly misplaces blame. While I certainly can’t speak for every Flag - and I will absolutely agree that not all Flags are created equal - for the most part, these leaders are highly intelligent and working hard to improve our Navy given the immense fiscal limitations that have been imposed by our elected officials. These are leaders who have sacrificed immensely to continue serving their nation instead of jumping on a generous retirement once they hit 20 years and moving into a cushy corporate position. Instead, they work to guide our forces through complex geo-strategic, industrial, and fiscal challenges, working to shape the forces of 2020 and beyond. Do they always get it right? No. But the ones I know are dedicated to doing the absolute best they can.
Top leaders routinely emphasize our number one asset (or our asymmetric advantage, as the CNO is prone to calling it) happens to be our All Volunteer Force. Our incredible sailors are resilient, innovative, and will ensure our naval forces remain the most capable in the world. Yes, China is a rising naval power - but its rise is commensurate with its economic status. Don’t blame our military leaders for our nation’s voracious appetite for Chinese-backed loans that helped China become an economic powerhouse. And don’t judge military strategy and policy based on the snippets you may catch on the evening news. While playing armchair quarterback is a great pastime, the nuances of our economic, diplomatic, and military policy with China are not clearly articulated or captured in the rant.
So while I can appreciate a good rant, it demonstrates a lack of understanding of how the system actually works and who the leaders are that are running it. As for VADM Howard, I have personally worked for her, but only for a few months. I feel it would be inappropriate to judge someone based on that short of a time, so will keep my opinions to myself and not base them on anecdotes. Not all leaders are likable - or charismatic. All have strengths and weaknesses which must be balanced in the job for which they, as Flags, are chosen. Realistically, the VCNO position doesn’t need a good ship driver. It requires different skillsets, skills we on this forum can guess at, but are unable to accurately assess whether she has them. Let’s just hope the Flag management team has indeed chosen her because she has the requisite skill set, and not for any other reason.[/QUOTE]
ARMCHAIR SAILOR!?
May I suggest you do your homework before you come pissing on John’s parade! The man your attempting to discredit is not only a US Merchant Mariner with an Unlimited Master’s license and more seatime than you could possibly have but he’s also a recognized maritime expert quoted by the world’s top institutions including The New York Times, Bloomberg, Stamford University AND the F’n Naval War College! He also wrote a book about merchant mariners for Harper Collins. Avery well reviewed bookto boot!! And if that does nothing for you then know that one of his article last month was included in President Obama’s daily briefing.
So unless you know something Harper Collins, the New York Times and the Naval Liason to the white house don’t… then please go take a long hike down a short pier!
And, BTW, if you are working with ADM Howard directly then I not only question her leadership but that of her entire staff!
P.S. John is also founder of this site which get’s millions of readers each month… and, trust me, they ain’t all coming because of John’s good looks or his charming personality!!
[I]C.Captain, May I [I][U]please[/U][/I] borrow your pointy stick?[/I]
I only got one thing to say to blackshoey: “Mr. John draws a lot of water in this town. You don’t draw shit, Lebowski.”
Tell me more about this WH briefing. Where did you read about that?
[QUOTE=PaddyWest2012;126548]Tell me more about this WH briefing. Where did you read about that?[/QUOTE]
It was in regards to the C.Retriever incident. John mentioned the WH briefing on his podcast.
Thank heavens for immense fiscal limitations. Those “hard working” pampered and puffed up Porteresque pretenders would have emptied the treasury years ago had not the politicians kept so much for their own pet projects.
These are leaders who have sacrificed immensely to continue serving their nation instead of jumping on a generous retirement once they hit 20 years and moving into a cushy corporate position.
Sacrificed? They live in palaces, are treated like minor royalty, paid far beyond their value, and until they are publicly exposed for their incompetence or worse, receive better relief from responsibility than a pedophilic bishop.
They have come to represent the decline of government in this nation. They are the seedlings of a dangerous crop whose roots will strangle the system that gave them such privilege and power. Even their uniforms have come to reflect those of African kleptocrats and military dictators.
Those who might reform are weeded out long before they become a threat to the status quo.
[QUOTE=domer;126545][COLOR="#808080"][/COLOR]
ARMCHAIR SAILOR!?
May I suggest you do your homework before you come pissing on John’s parade! The man your attempting to discredit is not only a US Merchant Mariner with an Unlimited Master’s license and more seatime than you could possibly have but he’s also a recognized maritime expert quoted by the world’s top institutions including The New York Times, Bloomberg, Stamford University AND the F’n Naval War College! He also wrote a book about merchant mariners for Harper Collins. Avery well reviewed bookto boot!! And if that does nothing for you then know that one of his article last month was included in President Obama’s daily briefing.
So unless you know something Harper Collins, the New York Times and the Naval Liason to the white house don’t… then please go take a long hike down a short pier!
And, BTW, if you are working with ADM Howard directly then I not only question her leadership but that of her entire staff!
P.S. John is also founder of this site which get’s millions of readers each month… and, trust me, they ain’t all coming because of John’s good looks or his charming personality!!
[I]C.Captain, May I [I][U]please[/U][/I] borrow your pointy stick?[/I][/QUOTE]
Domer, I’m frankly shocked you just wrote that. John has never worked at the Pentagon, or stood a watch on a warship, and he’s definitely not an expert when it comes to Navy doctrine. Sorry to burst your bubble but neither John, nor I, are on the shortlist of people to call when the Naval War College needs expert insight.
I know “Blackshoe” and this person, who will remain anonymous, is speaking from an extensive amount of personal experience and insight, and is well qualified to have made that statement.
Next time, try to engage with someone on an intellectual level before you mock them.
Another thing folks… if someone is “Just Browsing” on the Forum, it means they are new to the Forum. Treating these individual’s comments with ignorance and disrespect does nothing to support the growth of our forum, or stimulate intellectual discussion, it just guarantees that whoever you just slammed, will likely not return in the future. Let’s keep that in mind.
[QUOTE=domer;126545]
ARMCHAIR SAILOR!?
May I suggest you do your homework before you come pissing on John’s parade! The man your attempting to discredit is not only a US Merchant Mariner with an Unlimited Master’s license and more seatime than you could possibly have but he’s also a recognized maritime expert quoted by the world’s top institutions including The New York Times, Bloomberg, Stamford University AND the F’n Naval War College! He also wrote a book about merchant mariners for Harper Collins. Avery well reviewed bookto boot!! And if that does nothing for you then know that one of his article last month was included in President Obama’s daily briefing.
So unless you know something Harper Collins, the New York Times and the Naval Liason to the white house don’t… then please go take a long hike down a short pier!
And, BTW, if you are working with ADM Howard directly then I not only question her leadership but that of her entire staff!
P.S. John is also founder of this site which get’s millions of readers each month… and, trust me, they ain’t all coming because of John’s good looks or his charming personality!!
[I]C.Captain, May I [I][U]please[/U][/I] borrow your pointy stick?[/I][/QUOTE]
Frankly, sir, my comments were in no way intended to, as you so eloquently wrote, “piss on John’s parade.” Apparently I misconstrued this forum as a place to actually discuss differing perspectives without resorting to brutish quips or threats.
But if you would like to debate qualifications, I’d like to offer that seatime as a merchant mariner is far different than seatime on a warship. I have none of the former, but plenty of the latter. I do not profess to be an expert on the merchant marine, just as I find it amusing that someone with no time on warships can profess to be an expert on the Navy. I have the utmost respect for the seamanship skills possessed by the merchant sailors - their aptitude often far exceeds that of naval officers. Just offer the same respect for those of us who have chosen naval warfighting as a profession.
The maritime realm is one which encompasses a vast spectrum - we should all listen to the experts within each array and seek to learn from them, rather than bully them to take their insights and experiences elsewhere.
PS. Articles are not included in POTUS daily briefings.
[QUOTE=domer;126545][COLOR="#808080"][/COLOR]
ARMCHAIR SAILOR!?
May I suggest you do your homework before you come pissing on John’s parade! The man your attempting to discredit is not only a US Merchant Mariner with an Unlimited Master’s license and more seatime than you could possibly have but he’s also a recognized maritime expert quoted by the world’s top institutions including The New York Times, Bloomberg, Stamford University AND the F’n Naval War College! He also wrote a book about merchant mariners for Harper Collins. Avery well reviewed bookto boot!! And if that does nothing for you then know that one of his article last month was included in President Obama’s daily briefing.
So unless you know something Harper Collins, the New York Times and the Naval Liason to the white house don’t… then please go take a long hike down a short pier!
And, BTW, if you are working with ADM Howard directly then I not only question her leadership but that of her entire staff!
P.S. John is also founder of this site which get’s millions of readers each month… and, trust me, they ain’t all coming because of John’s good looks or his charming personality!!
[I]C.Captain, May I [I][U]please[/U][/I] borrow your pointy stick?[/I][/QUOTE]
Domer, Thank you for your support on this topic! That said, Blackshoe is correct, I am not a Naval expert, President Obama has never read one of my articles (an article Rob wrote was briefly mentioned) and, despite being located close to my house, I’ve never stepped foot in the Navy War College. Yes, I would have taken offense if Blackshoe had called me an Armchair Sailor but he didn’t… he called me an Armchair Quarterback and, when it comes to the navy, that is a fair assessment.
I actually agree with most of what Blackshoe says. I agree with the fact that “our number one asset… happens to be our All Volunteer Force” (which includes the all volunteer US Merchant Marine!). I agree (and said previously) that the VNCO position doesn’t need to be a good ship driver. I certainly agree in regards to “our nation’s voracious appetite for Chinese-backed loans”. I also agree that not all flag’s are created equal and I’ll even retract my statement about all 4 stars (I do remember one recent 4-star who was a strong supporter of, and frequently communicated with, the Merchant Marine). I also agree (as said previously in this thread) with holding back any negative comments on ADM Howard’s flag leadership abilities. And I agree that these people are smart, hard working and dedicated individuals who could have cashed in a long time ago.
In fact I can only find one single point in Blackshoe’s argument that I disagree with ([I][U]to be continued[/U][/I]), so let’s get this discussion back on track!
[QUOTE=blackshoe;126572]Frankly, sir, my comments were in no way intended to, as you so eloquently wrote, “piss on John’s parade.” Apparently I misconstrued this forum as a place to actually discuss differing perspectives without resorting to brutish quips or threats.[/QUOTE]
True, you won’t find much eloquence on a merchant ship!
[QUOTE=blackshoe;126572]I do not profess to be an expert on the merchant marine.[/QUOTE]
Who in the Navy is an expert in the Merchant Marine?? This very lack of expertise is a major part of the problem!
[QUOTE=blackshoe;126572]I just as I find it amusing that someone with no time on warships can profess to be an expert on the Navy.[/QUOTE]
You are correct, I’ve never been on a warship underway! I know little to nothing about naval operations, naval communications, naval anything. I don’t even know what half of the insignia on your uniforms means! [I][U]This is an ever bigger problem[/U][/I]! Up till a couple of years ago the USMMA had a course available to USMM officers on communicating with the Navy. Naval officers would learn from us and we from them. That program was the last of it’s kind (there once were many such programs). Today I don’t even know how to hail a navy ship on the VHF! What do those numbers on the side of a navy ship mean?? I don’t know? Why can’t I just call a navy ship on the radio by its name? I have NO clue!
Don’t you see the problem here??
I am decidedly NOT an expert in Navy operations and this lack of knowledge is my primary complaint. And it’s not due to a failure or lack of interest on my part, I would LOVE to take a short trip on a warship, it’s a failure of Sr Flag officers to recognize the importance of sharing information, training, knowledge and support between the US Navy and USMM.
[QUOTE=blackshoe;126572] I have the utmost respect for the seamanship skills possessed by the merchant sailors - their aptitude often far exceeds that of naval officers. Just offer the same respect for those of us who have chosen naval warfighting as a profession.[/FONT][/QUOTE]
True, although I truly don’t understand why. We (at least those of us who worked on large ships) sail a simple great circle course between ports and pick up a pilot when in port. We don’t have the time or money to hone our shiphandling skills, conduct shiphandling drills or do anything of the sort.
But, it’s not brain surgery,shiphandling can be taught… all any Naval officer would have to do is to ask to come aboard for a ride-along.
[QUOTE=blackshoe;126572] Just offer the same respect for those of us who have chosen naval warfighting as a profession.[/QUOTE]
I have said nothing negative about 99.9% of Navy personnel to whom I have deep gratitude and respect. Any disrespect and ingratitude you may have detected in my words is strictly limited to Sr. (3-4 star) Flag Officers.
[QUOTE=blackshoe;126572] The maritime realm is one which encompasses a vast spectrum - we should all listen to the experts within each array and seek to learn from them, rather than bully them to take their insights and experiences elsewhere.[/QUOTE]
AGREED!
[QUOTE=blackshoe;126572] PS. Articles are not included in POTUS daily briefings.[/QUOTE]
TRUE!
Now… as far as the one thing I believe you are wrong about, the single most important item in this thread… the basic competence of Navy Sr. Flag Officers.
What was the most important naval asset in WWII?
You ask any Naval officer this and 99% will reply “The Aircraft Carrier”. A critical asset indeed… we would not have won the Pacific war without it! But I didn’t ask about the Pacific War, I asked about WWII… and the single most important asset of the European Theatre, more critical than bombers and tanks, were the liberty ships. We could not have won the war without them!
If a 3-4 star admiral let a single carrier strike force atrophy and rust. If they did nothing to train the crew in Naval communication, naval techniques, naval procedures and doctrine. If they kept the carrier groups completely segregated from the rest of the navy… he would be called incompetent by every naval expert on the planet. So why is it shocking that I call him (or her) totally incompetent for allowing this to happen to our other most important asset?
Jones Act
I am NOT talking about the Jones Act here. That is a political quagmire that even I am unwilling to do much about (besides throwing up my hands in frustration). I am not blaming ADM Howard or any other ADM for our “our nation’s maritime woes”. It would certainly be nice if they supported the Jones Act but, I admit, the deep seated problems of the maritime domain are well beyond their ability to control.
This, however, is not about our maritime woes… What it IS about?
It IS about working together as a team. It’s about recognizing and respecting one another, not ignoring (as the NAVY does) and cursing (as mariners do) each other. [B][I]The CNO is correct, the strength of this nation is not in the assets themselves but in 100% the [/I][/B][B][I]asymmetric advantage of having a well trained, well respected, cooperative, and motivated volunteer force[/I][/B]. . All that I am asking for is some basic leadership starting with recognition followed by communication and education.
But, since the cold war (when the USMM worked closely with the navy) nothing has been done to foster a working relationship. The USMM (not just the ship but, much more importantly) has been marginalized/ignored… and the most frustrating part is that the low hanging fruit (basic communication between the services) could be collected with very little investment in time or capital. All it takes is for the Flag Officers to stop saying “the USMM is not in our purview” and start saying “Let’s think of creative ways to work together”.
-John
As someone who spent some time on Navy warships, I don’t think the Navy ignores the merchant marine, it’s just that for better or worse, it’s not something that is super relevant to their day-to-day. Strategically, yes, the Navy is important to the US Merchant Marine, but on a ship (unit) level, it’s not something that a commanding officer would really be all that focused on I don’t think. That person is far more interested in ensuring their ship is ready to fight. Or do whatever their ship is tasked to do.
It’s not the Navy’s fault if the U.S. maritime industry disintegrates. In fact, it’s not in their realm of things that they should even be concerned with in my view. The Navy is there to fight wars and to ensure open sea lanes, not to fight political or economic battles.
Also, regarding the officers who advance to flag rank, believe it or not, they are actually hand picked for those specific roles depending on their expertise. It’s not a random political game as many may think.
[QUOTE=rob;126562]Another thing folks… if someone is “Just Browsing” on the Forum, it means they are new to the Forum. Treating these individual’s comments with ignorance and disrespect does nothing to support the growth of our forum, or stimulate intellectual discussion, it just guarantees that whoever you just slammed, will likely not return in the future. Let’s keep that in mind.[/QUOTE]
I went to kindergarten and have been on this forum for 6 1/2 years so, yeah, I know what “Just Browsing” means.
Ignorance and disrespect? So it’s ok for a greenhorn to call the master an “Armchair Quarterback” but I can’t suggest a walk down the pier? Listen sonny, what we have here is a failure to communicate. Not understanding what in hell the CNO means by “asymmetric advantage” does not make me ignorant and, during my decades at sea, I never read a Dale Carnegie utopian fantasy novel or boarded a kinder and gentler "war"ship but I did learn respect. I also learned how to make a grown man cry. So, unless those are tears running down your cheek, I suggest [I][B]you[/B][/I] join blackshoe on a long walk down a short pier!