I see what you’re saying but it doesn’t look like that’s the case, If you google using “locked” almost all the hits say “blocked” except a couple about the transcipt itself.
I don’t doubt the hatch and the labeled red and white signs with arrows pointing to it were shown to the passengers during the briefing the morning of departure. A lot of that wouldn’t stick with many passengers at 0300, mostly exhausted from getting ready and travelling, hauling dive gear through aiports, often hungover, blase, and just want to crash and start diving in morning. I’ve been there before. What percentage of airline passengers even pretend to listen to the safey briefings?
Having to climb up a ladder on the side of the racks and then having to get into the top rack to access the panel is piss poor planning.
NOT blaming the company, they followed the rules.
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That is the worst emergency exit I’ve ever seen.
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By deep-sea standards it would be totally unacceptable. But the point is that the compartment did (I should say apparently, the photo is a sister) in fact have a second exit.
This thread is starting to loop back on itself.
I’m in southern california and the media here is certainly not staying neutral as it should. In spite of all the hundreds of miles of coastline and nautical heritage here, most folks are completely oblivious to the maritime industry in general. Therefore i’m on a borderline rant regarding what i have seen on the news locally and how the media has subtlety been insinuating certain deficiencies. If you saw the press conference and some of the questions that were asked…
I know this is what media does and its the way of the world but this really hits close to home for me personally, even though i never worked on this boat or for this company.
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Yeah, I didn’t really think about that, I’m not seeing the same stuff you are.
I saw an LA based report that made big mention that a diver on one of the boats had to be airlifted a while back because he ascended too fast and got the bends. It happens and the crew knows what to do. Who’s going to tell a paying sixty something year old certified diver who smelled of booze when he boarded that he can’t dive when he shows up on deck in the morning 5 hours later looking healthy and rarin’ to go?
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I’m in complete agreement with you. Even if they got both sides of the conversation the layman has not enough knowledge to understand a lot of the jargon.
How is the rules regarding recording vhf conversation in USA? My GOC sertificat comes with a confidentiality agreement. Who is recording?
I forgot the best part. I think it was the same article that claimed a previous customer reported her berth on the Conception reeked of raw fuel but when she reported it, everyone ignored her. I wonder if they paid her or if she is just barking mad because the captain ignored her advances.
That is a pretty awkward rabbit hole, more a parody of a true escape exit. I estimate that three agile marines per minute could wurm through that exit hole, for 46 marines it takes then a little over 15 minutes. For a mixed party of passengers, much less agile and some probably overweight in various degrees, the rate could be as low as two per minute if nobody gets stuck that is. That would then take 23 minutes, hopefully nobody is panicking and the (emergency) lighting stays on.
No, let’s face it if something happens like here or other calamities like water ingress due for instance a T-bone action of another ship in the bunk area there is no escape possible, you are doomed…
And the USCG looked and saw that it was good. I bet that at the time of the certification they never did a practical escape test with 46 persons.
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- Electronic Code of Federal Regulations (e-CFR)
- Title 46. Shipping
- Chapter I. COAST GUARD, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY
- Subchapter T. SMALL PASSENGER VESSELS (UNDER 100 GROSS TONS)
- Part 177. CONSTRUCTION AND ARRANGEMENT
- Subpart E. Escape Requirements
- Section 177.500. Means of escape.
46 CFR § 177.500 - Means of escape.
§ 177.500 Means of escape.
(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, each space accessible to passengers or used by the crew on a regular basis, must have at least two means of escape, one of which must not be a watertight door.
(b) The two required means of escape must be widely separated and, if possible, at opposite ends or sides of the space to minimize the possibility of one incident blocking both escapes.
© Subject to the restrictions of this section, means of escape may include normal exits and emergency exits, passageways, stairways, ladders, deck scuttles, and windows.
(d) The number and dimensions of the means of escape from each space must be sufficient for rapid evacuation in an emergency for the number of persons served. In determining the number of persons served, a space must be considered to contain at least the number of persons as follows:
(1)Passenger overnight accommodation spaces: Designed capacity;
(2)Accommodation spaces having fixed seating for passengers: Maximum seating capacity;
(3) Public spaces, including spaces such as casinos, restaurants, club rooms, and cinemas, and public accommodation spaces as defined in § 175.400 of this subchapter, except overnight accommodation spaces: One person may be permitted for each 0.9 square meters (10 square feet) of deck area. In computing such deck area, the following areas must be excluded:
(i) Areas for which the number of persons permitted is determined using the fixed seating criterion;
(ii) Obstructions, including stairway and elevator enclosures, elevated stages, bars, and cashier stands, but not including slot machines, tables, or other room furnishings;
(iii) Toilets and washrooms;
(iv) Interior passageways less than 860 millimeters (34 inches) wide and passageways on open deck less than 710 millimeters (28 inches) wide;
(v) Spaces necessary for handling lifesaving equipment, anchor handling equipment, or line handling gear, or in way of sail booms or running rigging; and
(vi) Bow pulpits, swimming platforms, and areas that do not have a solid deck, such as netting on multi hull vessels;
(4)Crew overnight accommodation spaces: Two-thirds designed capacity; and
(5) Work spaces: Occupancy under normal operating conditions.
(e) The dimensions of a means of escape must be such as to allow easy movement of persons when wearing life jackets. There must be no protrusions in means of escape that could cause injury, ensnare clothing, or damage life jackets.
(f) The minimum clear opening of a door or passageway used as a means of escape must not be less than 810 millimeters (32 inches) in width, however, doors or passageways used solely by crew members must have a clear opening not less than 710 millimeters (28 inches). The sum of the width of all doors and passageways used as means of escape from a space must not be less than 8.4 millimeters (0.333 inches) multiplied by the number of passengers for which the space is designed.
(g) A dead end passageway, or the equivalent, of more than 6.1 meters (20 feet) in length is prohibited.
(h) Each door, hatch, or scuttle, used as a means of escape, must be capable of being opened by one person, from either side, in both light and dark conditions. The method of opening a means of escape must be obvious, rapid, and of adequate strength. Handles and securing devices must be permanently installed and not capable of being easily removed. A door, hatch or scuttle must open towards the expected direction of escape from the space served.
(i) A means of escape which is not readily apparent to a person from both inside and outside the space must be adequately marked in accordance with § 185.606 of this chapter.
(j) A ladder leading to a deck scuttle may not be used as a means of escape except:
(1) On a vessel of not more than 19.8 meters (65 feet) in length, a vertical ladder and a deck scuttle may be used as not more than one of the means of escape from passenger accommodation space; or
(2) As not more than one of the means of escape from any crew accommodation space or work space.
(k) Each ladder used as a means of escape must be mounted at least 180 millimeters (7 inches) from the nearest permanent object in back of the ladder. Rungs must be:
(1) At least 405 millimeters (16 inches) in width; and
(2) Not more than 305 millimeters (12 inches) apart, and uniformly spaced for the length of the ladder with at least 114 millimeters (4.5 inches) clearance above each rung.
(l) When a deck scuttle serves as a means of escape, it must not be less than 455 millimeters (18 inches) in diameter and must be fitted with a quick acting release and a holdback device to hold the scuttle in an open position.
(m) Footholds, handholds, ladders, and similar means provided to aid escape, must be suitable for use in emergency conditions, of rigid construction, and permanently fixed in position, unless they can be folded, yet brought into immediate service in an emergency.
(n) On a vessel of not more than 19.8 meters (65 feet) in length, a window or windshield of sufficient size and proper accessibility may be used as one of the required means of escape from an enclosed space, provided it:
(1) Does not lead directly overboard;
(2) Can be opened or is designed to be kicked or pushed out; and
(3) Is suitably marked.
(o) Only one means of escape is required from a space where:
(1) The space has a deck area less than 30 square meters (322 square feet);
(2) There is no stove, heater, or other source of fire in the space;
(3) The means of escape is located as far as possible from a machinery space or fuel tank; and
(4) If an accommodation space, the single means of escape does not include a deck scuttle or a ladder.
§ Alternative means of escape from spaces may be provided if acceptable to the cognizant OCMI.
[CGD 85-080, 61 FR 961, Jan. 10, 1996; 62 FR 64306, Dec. 5, 1997]
Are there to your knowledge any USCG rulings regarding escape exits for this type of small passengers ships?
The escape exit of the Conception/Vision reminds me of the kickout panels we had in the cabin doors of Dutch ships. But then this was for the escape of one person, at the most two if the wife insisted to get out also.
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One of the members with more knowledge than me is going to have to weigh in on this but I believe that the Conception was what is called a “T boat” and what I posted applies.
I don’t see how the boat was even close to compliance if these rules do in fact apply.
No, that took then a lot of rule bending… In fact if you applied the rules to these ships they would probably never sail. It would take much larger ships. I think that they were overcrowded anyway, two persons per ship length meter, but each extra seat is money in the pocket.
If the boat was certificated before 1996 (built 1981), those rules likely didn’t apply. The pre 1996 means of escape regulations are much, much less developed as to dimensions and particulars.
Ҥ177.115 Applicability to existing ves- sels.
(a) Except as otherwise required by paragraph (b) of this section, an exist- ing vessel must comply with the con- struction and arrangement regulations that were applicable to the vessel on March 10, 1996, or, as an alternative, the vessel may comply with the regula- tions in this part.
(b) Alterations, or modifications made to the structure or arrangements of an existing vessel, that are a major conversion, on or after March 11, 1996, must comply with the regulations of this part. Repairs or maintenance con- ducted on an existing vessel, resulting in no significant changes to the origi- nal structure or arrangement of the vessel, must comply with the regula- tions applicable to the vessel on March 10, 1996, or, as an alternative, with the regulations in this part. However, when outfit items such as furnishings and mattresses are renewed, they must comply with the regulations in this part.“
But even under the ‘newer’ rules, there is a lot of room for the approval of historical arrangements and flexible interpretations of ‘acceptable’.
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The Wikipedia article has some interesting links:
This is fromone of the links there:
Fritzler: “I want people to know that there [are] two entrances into the bunking area: a main entrance and an emergency escape hatch. I want people to know that the area, the salon that people enter into the boat to access the area, there were no doors. It’s a wide open doorway and no doors. There were no locked doors anywhere … We did lose a crewman that was below deck, stationed down below decks with passengers, perished as well as best as we know … That was the only reason that any of the crews survived is they were on the upper deck and the flames reached up there and they had to make a large leap off the boat to escape the boat … I want them to know that a couple of the crewmen swam to the stern of the boat, that could not access any of the fire hoses because they were engulfed.”
When I was trying to figure how a fire could have spread that rapidly I was assuming that the there would be a crewmember on watch at night, evidently that’s not the case.
FWIW I think they need to rip out half those bunks, put in a proper escape with a regular ladder and start standing a watch at night.
Fromanother link:
Anchored in a harbour just 20 yards from the shore of Santa Cruz Island, three of the 33 guests aboard had celebrated their birthdays at dinner that night, and a crew member went to bed late after doing the dishes. He woke up just a few hours later to the sound of a pop in the dark, thinking someone was up and stumbling around. Instead, he opened a door to find the ship around him bathed in an intense orange glow, completely aflame, he recounted to a nearby boater after fleeing the ship.
So the boat burned for who knows how long with everyone asleep? This is VERY different than what I initially thought.
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That’s what it sound like. It is however not first hand information, supposedly based on what the crew said to those on the boat, the Grape Escape.
The crew members took their dinghy to a private ishing boat, The Grape Escape, that was anchored near the north shore of Santa Cruz Island.
If that story is correct it also rasises a question of why no fire alarm went off.
During the press conference a couple days ago a reporter asked the capt of the port sector la/lb if there was someone on watch and if there was a requirement for someone on watch. She said they didn’t have an answer yet if there was a watch at the time but there should have been a night watch/rover.
From my experience on charter sportfishing boats, we always had a rover at night no matter what. Underway or at anchor. If this is true there really isn’t a good excuse on why there wasn’t a watch.
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I’d like to know if they had anything more elaborate than household smoke alarms. The ER probably did, but its looking like the fire didn’t start there.