Jones Act - Time for a Change?

[QUOTE=lm1883;154373]Laws like the Jones Act insulate the public from big money and corporations. Corporate executives and their representatives that continually desire to offshore industry will always tell you how the public will reap the untold benefits. Drive through Flint, Michigan and tell me how that worked out.

Unchecked corporatism is a dangerous thing. At what point is the individual standard of living more important than a share of a S&P 500 company? 64 million households are on some type of assistance. The average family income is $48K a year, of which they will spend $45k just surviving, before any retirement or future college tuition is saved, or a note is paid on a car.

Read some of steamers post on the other thread. He puts it very succinctly.[/QUOTE]

Seriously, people need to ask themselves irrespective of their political affiliation-- What is the point of lower prices when everyone ends up unemployed or making minimum wage?

The Jones Act may not be perfect, but anyone that argues for its repeal must then ask themselves why their job is so special that they can’t be replaced by an H-1B visa.

Race to the bottom anyone?

[QUOTE=Kraken;154384]In the the report you will see that European shipyards are not building low-value ships any longer and are beginning to focus on construction of high value ships.[/QUOTE]

In the 1990s you heard similar strains of thought in the US in relation to “high tech”. Other countries could be left to make socks and steel. We’d make important things like computer components and all the other neat related stuff. Exports would soar forever. Today, less than 20 years later, virtually no computer related things are made in the USA.

I actually had some business with the North Sea oil when that hit. My company was a subcontractor to one of the drilling outfits, and I had the country of Norway as a account for shipping stuff from the US to Norway. There were these fancy drilling rigs being made in Texas and floated over to the North Sea. That was certainly “high value”. Today they get built in Korea and floated off to all sorts of places.

I don’t have any faith in the prognostications of so-called “experts” who tell us how wonderful things will be when we get rid of the tried and true and concentrate on the next big thing. Today, in the US we have the super high tech successes known as Facebook and Twitter, where millions of people get to waste their time posting things about the cat puking on the sofa, etc. Progress!.

[QUOTE=socalguy;154402]

Race to the bottom anyone?[/QUOTE]

Thanks to Congress that is the only race we are winning.

If Pro is the opposite of Con, what is the opposite of progress?

A quote from Paul Harvey

[QUOTE=JohnG;154370]The Jones Act is multifaceted and should be looked at as separate parts. There are building requirements and manning requirements.

Sen. McCain’s latest comments on the act entailed the cost of building ships in the US. The Linkedin post cited on this thread stated: “US shipyards are some of the most expensive in the world, which leads to higher operating costs for these ships.”

Why is that? Modern cruise ships are among the most advanced vessels being built. They entail incredible amounts of engineering. Just think of getting plumbing to the cabins. They’re built in European yards. The EU, with a population about 1/3 more than the US, has many shipyards who do the great majority of their work on commercial ships. US yards are almost totally dependent on the DOD. European countries are certainly not low cost places to operate. Why can’t US shipbuilding compete with other high cost countries?

To my knowledge, nobody has ever done a study on this. If you don’t know why something is, you cannot take any steps to correct it.

Manning is the second part of the equation. I recall a MARAD study a few years ago that cited US manning costs to be 80% higher than non US flag. Again, why? While hiring a bunch of Philipinos will save money, that cannot explain any divergence in cost with European and other advanced countries. That MARAD study did not attempt to explain the “why”. It simply stated the result of the study.

It’s a shame that the US seems completely uninterested in the reason why the US has become so uncompetitive, in many areas, over a relatively short period of time. The one thing I have noticed is that the US seems very concerned with piling regulations and mandates on employers, from about a zillion different agencies. Then those same regs are often duplicated at state and local levels. All of that makes it very hard for companies to operate profitably compared to foreign competitors. That results in fewer good jobs while crumby jobs, like in discount store and burger joints, proliferate.[/QUOTE]

The reason is simple. US Deepsea shipping is too small of an industry. There are too few shipyards and most them specialize in high cost, high profit government contracts. There is no economy of scale. The US government does not heavily subsidize US shipping, shipbuilding, and ship equipment manufacturing the way European countries do. The US values the environment and worker safety, unlike Korea and China. Its not a level playing field. Foreign shipyards don’t have to spend decades fighting environmental lawsuits every time the want to expand. Foreign shipyards are not responsible for cleaning up the mess left behind by others. 50 years ago. Asian shipyards don’t have to pay much when workers are killed or injured, so workers are expendable. Korean shipyards only exist because the US has subsidized them by providing Korea’s national defense for the past 70 years. If the US Government gave that same level of subsidy to US shipbuilding and US flag shipping, the US would have cost competitive shipyards and US flag ships.

What’s next, we could save a lot more money by letting foreign flag airlines fly US freight and passengers on domestic routes.

We could save a lot of money by allowing Mexican trucks to carry US goods on US routes.

We could save a lot of money by allowing 75 percent cheaper Mexican dentists to open offices in the US. And there is no need to stop there. The sky is the limit.

I just wonder how much welfare and unemployment programs would need to grow I wonder who is going to be left with a job to pay the taxes to support all these expanded welfare programs.

[QUOTE=tugsailor;154412]The reason is simple. US Deepsea shipping is too small of an industry. There are too few shipyards and most them specialize in high cost, high profit government contracts. There is no economy of scale. The US government does not heavily subsidize US shipping, shipbuilding, and ship equipment manufacturing the way European countries do. The US values the environment and worker safety, unlike Korea and China. Its not a level playing field. Foreign shipyards don’t have to spend decades fighting environmental lawsuits every time the want to expand. Foreign shipyards are not responsible for cleaning up the mess left behind by others. 50 years ago. Asian shipyards don’t have to pay much when workers are killed or injured, so workers are expendable. Korean shipyards only exist because the US has subsidized them by providing Korea’s national defense for the past 70 years. If the US Government gave that same level of subsidy to US shipbuilding and US flag shipping, the US would have cost competitive shipyards and US flag ships.

What’s next, we could save a lot more money by letting foreign flag airlines fly US freight and passengers on domestic routes.

We could save a lot of money by allowing Mexican trucks to carry US goods on US routes.

We could save a lot of money by allowing 75 percent cheaper Mexican dentists to open offices in the US. And there is no need to stop there. The sky is the limit.

I just wonder how much welfare and unemployment programs would need to grow I wonder who is going to be left with a job to pay the taxes to support all these expanded welfare programs.[/QUOTE]

Actually Europe stopped subsidizing shipbuilding a few years back and most all yards closed. A few specialty yards prosper through use of technology and as mentioned, economy of scale. Korea & China subsidize yards heavily and all that has been repeatedly reported on (in depth) by MARAD, among others. But our nation did squat to fix it. Who needs steel mills and shipyards, damned nests of unionizing socialists sending their kids to school and using health care and clogging up the doctors offices …

As for the overseas airlines and Mexican trucks delivering in the USA, all that has been proposed and has actual supporters in Congress.
But everything will be fine.
Take your daily dose of Fox News and vote as directed.
There will be no welfare for those who fail to have the right connections, i mean adapt…

[QUOTE=JohnG;154403]In the 1990s you heard similar strains of thought in the US in relation to “high tech”. Other countries could be left to make socks and steel. We’d make important things like computer components and all the other neat related stuff. Exports would soar forever. Today, less than 20 years later, virtually no computer related things are made in the USA.

I actually had some business with the North Sea oil when that hit. My company was a subcontractor to one of the drilling outfits, and I had the country of Norway as a account for shipping stuff from the US to Norway. There were these fancy drilling rigs being made in Texas and floated over to the North Sea. That was certainly “high value”. Today they get built in Korea and floated off to all sorts of places.

I don’t have any faith in the prognostications of so-called “experts” who tell us how wonderful things will be when we get rid of the tried and true and concentrate on the next big thing. Today, in the US we have the super high tech successes known as Facebook and Twitter, where millions of people get to waste their time posting things about the cat puking on the sofa, etc. Progress!.[/QUOTE]

Well it’s self-inflicted that you lost control over high tech construction. Are you going to be the most expensive, you must at least be the best at what you do. It is quite a long time ago that “Made in USA” was a mark of quality in the world.

And when it comes to computers, I can not see that you are struggling to make money. The two biggest oprative systems in the world are from the US.

[QUOTE=tugsailor;154412]The US government does not heavily subsidize US shipping, shipbuilding, and ship equipment manufacturing the way European countries do.[/QUOTE]
That is simply not true.

Almost all major shipyards in Europe have gone bankrupt in competition with Asian shipyards. The only shipyards that have survived specialize in narrow fields that they are good at. For instance Norway and construction of offshore ships.

[QUOTE=Kraken;154419]Well it’s self-inflicted that you lost control over high tech construction. Are you going to be the most expensive, you must at least be the best at what you do. It is quite a long time ago that “Made in USA” was a mark of quality in the world.

And when it comes to computers, I can not see that you are struggling to make money. The two biggest oprative systems in the world are from the US.[/QUOTE]

Yes, the loss of high tech manufacturing was self inflicted. The US simply gave away cost advantages to Asia. Before computers the US gave away its home electronics business to Japan in the 1970s, allowing them to compete unfairly with US goods, mostly by keeping their exchange rate far too low…

Yes, I agree on the quality thing. It’s certainly has fallen. I’m old enough to know when it was the opposite.

An OS is not a computer and involves no manufacturing. That means that no decent blue collar jobs come out of it. More importantly, the supply chain business disappears. That’s many times a multiple of the base number of jobs. The CEO of Apple recently noted the lack of American machine tool makers as an impediment to all US manufacturing. That’s a perfect example of the supply chain going away.

[QUOTE=JohnG;154424]QUOTE=JohnG;154424]The CEO of Apple recently noted the lack of American machine tool makers as an impediment to all US manufacturing. That’s a perfect example of the supply chain going away.[/QUOTE]

Heh, before I learned about the maritime world and came to an academy I was looking into becoming a tool & die maker. I was heartily discouraged because of a supposed lack of job prospects. I still want to build a personal machine shop someday…

I’m old enough to remember when the number of new tool and die orders was an indicator of economic health.

[QUOTE=catherder;154445]I’m old enough to remember when the number of new tool and die orders was an indicator of economic health.[/QUOTE]

It still is an indicator and we have none. Economic health is poor. Take away the financial wizards on Wall St making money out of air and the USA has no economy aside from perpetual war which of course benefits Wall St… The USA is an oligarchy where standards of living are in decline for the majority of its citizens, real wages at historic lows etc. One of the last remnants remaining of USA pride and respect of workers and industry is the Jones Act which drives the oligarchs nuts. Their employees in the executive and legislative branches of government will take care of that problem in time I am sure.

[QUOTE=tengineer1;154450]It still is an indicator and we have none. Economic health is poor. Take away the financial wizards on Wall St making money out of air and the USA has no economy aside from perpetual war which of course benefits Wall St… The USA is an oligarchy where standards of living are in decline for the majority of its citizens, real wages at historic lows etc. One of the last remnants remaining of USA pride and respect of workers and industry is the Jones Act which drives the oligarchs nuts. Their employees in the executive and legislative branches of government will take care of that problem in time I am sure.[/QUOTE]

Well said. Time for everyone to stop being stooges and think for our own families.

This slipped by in the news a couple weeks ago…surprised the teamsters didn’t have the power to stop it. Scary.

Transportation Department officials said Friday that Mexican trucking companies will soon be able to apply to make long-haul trips into the United States, ending a protracted dispute.
The policy change is expected to open up more trade between the two border countries and lead to the permanent termination of more than $2 billion in annual retaliatory tariffs on U.S. goods.

U.S. officials cleared the way for Mexican trucks to apply after a three-year pilot program determined that Mexican carriers could meet the safety levels at least as high as the U.S. and Canadian trucking firms.
"Opening the door to a safe cross-border trucking system with Mexico is a major step forward in strengthening our relationship with the nation’s third largest trading partner, and in meeting our obligations under NAFTA,” said Transportation Secretary Anthony Foxx.

Yes. That has been in the works since NAFTA. Mexican trucks will now be able to haul goods to or from Mexico and the US. That is foreign trade, completely different from the Jones Act.

What would be similar to repealing the Jones Act, would be allowing Mexican trucks to pick up and deliver goods between points in the US. And it won’t be long before that is advocated by someone like John McCain.

It won’t be long before the Chinese construct a container ship port in Mexico.

Let’s see. Free Trade.

Mexican trucks (and the US trucking companies setting up instantly in Mexico) making deliveries to all 48 states.
Lots of deliveries, and of course, since the truck and driver would be making an empty return, just maybe, possibly, well, you know, perhaps we could get an “Exemption” to avoid all those empty road miles and save the environment …
Something for everyone in Congress to vote for, and with a little undisclosed special interest money, say a hundred million to quietly spread around, all will be just perfect.

Now, think of ALL those US trucks and ALL those US drivers delivering US goods to ALL over in the booming Mexican economy.
You know, the great Mexican economy everyone is rushing south to get into, and the one that will be needing ALL those frequent and necessary US trips from say NYC to Merida.

That’s okay, unions actually fight against this type of nonsense.
Nonsense that is already occurring.
But unions and teachers are bad.
Fox News told me so.

[I]PS - This is a problem already in Western Europe, where the French and Germany trucking firms set up subsidiaries in Poland. Working hours are longer and wage requirements slightly less in Poland, but right of access and EU citizenship mean the trucks can go and pick up and deliver anywhere.
The (former) truck drivers in the western parts are pissed.[/I]

[QUOTE=Kraken;154477]It won’t be long before the Chinese construct a container ship port in Mexico.[/QUOTE]

It was announced about a year ago that the Chinese are building a big new port on the west coast of Mexico with a new direct double stack train rail line to Texas. I’m not sure how far along that has gotten.

The Chinese have built a bunch of factories in Mexico where Chinese made goods are altered to become Mexican goos and enter the US duty free.

The stupidity of our government is beyond belief.

It’s interesting seeing a difference perspective of the Jones Act. Working in the O&G industry, you only see a snippet that is constantly being changed like the wind due to the coonass mafia.

Correct me if I’m wrong, wasn’t the JA originally put into place for commercial trade (containers/RORO/bulk, etc)?

What is the thought of instead of a JA requirement for the build of the vessel, have some sort of labor law similar to Australia, Norway, et al, that mandates American labor on any ship operating here?

[QUOTE=tugsailor;154499]The stupidity of our government is beyond belief.[/QUOTE]

Get used to it. Since the concept of shame no longer exists in Congress, our national condition will only continue to degenerate.

“Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.” –Mark Twain