Jones Act and Tug Industry

Maritime Topics Tugs & Towing
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[QUOTE=smoker;153123]Sure, you may be able to use FoC vessels, but about how are they going to use FoC crew to sail coast wise/Great Lakes, I’ve no effin idea. And, how are they going to get a TWIC beats me too.

True Story:

I was at the TWIC centre in NJ last year due to a stupid mistake that I made and elected to go personally as its not that far and would take max 5 mins to solve it. While trying to find parking space, I noticed a woman standing outside and fleetingly wondered why is she outside in 90F when she could be cool inside where its air-conditioned? Parked the car and while entering, I noticed her again and wondered for a moment whether she was Chinese or Filpino? (Well, she was fat and I was playing mental games). We all know what documentation it takes to get past the guardian at the TWIC centre. Sat there and saw the drama unfolding. That Chinese/Filipino wanted a TWIC and the guardian, leave alone allowing her to enter, would not even look at her documents. The said lady wanted a TWIC so that she can enter the port and join her husband as a supernumerary.

Two things I quickly surmised were:

  1. She was in USA on a dependent visa and USA is very clear about the fact that anybody on a dependent visa cannot work. Get caught and the entire family is deported, apart from being fined.
  2. The husband was probably on a US crew visa and no amount of pleading, including from the ship line, the rep, phone calls from hubby on ship, crying, etc would make the guardian budge.

Why? 'Coz, as per rules, NO WORK PERMIT = NO TWIC = NO ACCESS TO DOCKS. The guardian went back to painting her nails and talking on her cell.

So, how are these guys going to get a work visa and a TWIC?[/QUOTE]

So how are all of those shuttle tankers operating, crew changing, and many other foreign flag ships crew changing through our ports??

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[QUOTE=smoker;153127]LOL. Sowwie :)[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=lm1883;153125]It is possible for foreigners to obtain a TWIC card and they are encouraged to do so.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but not as a dependent. The foreigners have to show that they’ve a legitimate reason for being in the port. From the website:

The TWIC regulation includes a list of various immigration categories that are eligible to apply for a TWIC, including nationals, refugees, lawful non-immigrants with unrestricted work authorization, and certain professionals with restricted work authorization.

That lady could not show that she had a work permit.

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[QUOTE=lm1883;153125]It is possible for foreigners to obtain a TWIC card and they are encouraged to do so.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but not as a dependent. The foreigners have to show that they’ve a legitimate reason for being in the port. From the website:

The TWIC regulation includes a list of various immigration categories that are eligible to apply for a TWIC, including nationals, refugees, lawful non-immigrants with unrestricted work authorization, and certain professionals with restricted work authorization.

That lady could not show that she had a work permit.

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[QUOTE=injunear;153128]So how are all of those shuttle tankers operating, crew changing, and many other foreign flag ships crew changing through our ports??[/QUOTE]

I am assuming that with the US Crew Visa and being transported back & forth with somebody holding a TWIC! If you go through all the manning websites, all clearly state that “US Crew Visa is a must”.

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If the Jones Act were repealed (which will never happen), foreign flag tugs with foreign crew probably would be able to work in the US without visa or twics.

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[QUOTE=tugsailor;153131]If the Jones Act were repealed (which will never happen), foreign flag tugs with foreign crew probably would be able to work in the US without visa or twics.[/QUOTE]

It’s simply not possible. You cannot enter the country without a visa and you cannot enter the docks without a TWIC. The rules say so. A sailor has to be given shore leave and that too is in the rules. The TWIC rules negate that. The local chaplain with TWIC is always seen ferrying the foreign sailors around.

http://seamenschurch.org/sites/default/files/sci-shore-leave-survey-2014.pdf

If the maritime industry gets this, then the airline industry too will demand it and pretty soon the entire country. This will open a Pandoras box, which no country or politician will risk.

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[QUOTE=smoker;153134]It’s simply not possible. You cannot enter the country without a visa and you cannot enter the docks without a TWIC. The rules say so. A sailor has to be given shore leave and that too is in the rules. The TWIC rules negate that. The local chaplain with TWIC is always seen ferrying the foreign sailors around.

http://seamenschurch.org/sites/default/files/sci-shore-leave-survey-2014.pdf

If the maritime industry gets this, then the airline industry too will demand it and pretty soon the entire country. This will open a Pandoras box, which no country or politician will risk.[/QUOTE]

So what’s your point? Someone with a TWIC ferries foreign seamen in and out of port to get on foreign flag vessels transporting cargo between ports in the U.S.

Rules?? Who follows rules? Illegals in several states are getting drivers licenses. “Illegal” ain’t a sick bird. It doesn’t take Pythagoras to figure out it’s cheaper to reflag U.S. product tankers and ATBs for coastwise trade if the Jones act is gone. I can see it now. Crew change goes from 28/28 to 365/365.

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[QUOTE=injunear;153137]So what’s your point? Someone with a TWIC ferries foreign seamen in and out of port to get on foreign flag vessels transporting cargo between ports in the U.S.

Rules?? Who follows rules? Illegals in several states are getting drivers licenses. “Illegal” ain’t a sick bird. It doesn’t take Pythagoras to figure out it’s cheaper to reflag U.S. product tankers and ATBs for coastwise trade if the Jones act is gone. I can see it now. Crew change goes from 28/28 to 365/365.[/QUOTE]

The DMV is a state issue and immigration + jobs in USA is a Fed issue. You are comparing apples to oranges and to understand my point, read what I wrote, including the link I pasted.

Reflagging is a different issue (I"ll leave that for McCain and his supporters on this board to debate that) and manning those ships with a foreign crew to sail nationally is a different issue which, under several laws, is not possible. The OP was talking about manning, not flagging & that’s what I was, somewhat humorously, pointing out.

Thanks for the laugh about 365/365. So, what you are saying is that earlier a sailor was lucky when he came home, because he had a home to come to. So what if the home was cleaned out and the missus gone. Now, with 365, he won’t even have a home to come to as everything will be all gone, is it? :slight_smile:

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[QUOTE=tugsailor;153034]The same owners would be operating the same boats under foreign flags with very low cost foreign mariners. All new boats would be built in Turkey or China.

But why stop their, let’s allow foreign airlines to carry passengers the US. Lets bring in foreign trucks and truck drivers. If we really want to save money, lets allow foreign hospitals with foreign doctors and nurses. But the real money would be in letting thebgovernment hire foreign workers to process all the unemployment and welfare claims.[/QUOTE]

Well said. This goes back to the fact that there is no such thing as a level playing field in international commerce. All “first world” developed nations impose laws that govern and restrict the conditions under which business is transacted within its own borders. It amazes me that an over-privileged blowhard like McCain presumes to know what’s good for American business and consumers when he lacks the the most fundemental understanding of commerce or economics. Seriously, these are very simple concepts and it makes me wonder what kind of people show up to vote in Arizona.

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Smoker, the idea these folks have to dismantle the jones act Is to bypass the US build requirement, as well as any cabotage. You speak of visas in the current context, where you’re obviously correct. The majority of FOC seamen I see don’t have proper visas and cannot get shore leave. It’s VERY common. I just don’t see why they would make an anti-jones act push because as you paint it what’s there to gain if you can’t use foreigners?

If they’re not going to eliminate cabotage then why do it? Their whole idea is to open up coastwise trade to whoever wants it. We don’t know what would change, so don’t rule out the whole visa/TWIC system changing.

We shouldn’t be speculating over this nonsense in the first place though!

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[QUOTE=smoker;153139]The DMV is a state issue and immigration + jobs in USA is a Fed issue. You are comparing apples to oranges and to understand my point, read what I wrote, including the link I pasted.

Reflagging is a different issue (I"ll leave that for McCain and his supporters on this board to debate that) and manning those ships with a foreign crew to sail nationally is a different issue which, under several laws, is not possible. The OP was talking about manning, not flagging & that’s what I was, somewhat humorously, pointing out.

Thanks for the laugh about 365/365. So, what you are saying is that earlier a sailor was lucky when he came home, because he had a home to come to. So what if the home was cleaned out and the missus gone. Now, with 365, he won’t even have a home to come to as everything will be all gone, is it? :)[/QUOTE]

Reflagging will be the end result if the JA is repealed, period. Then manning will come under the flag/state.

You may think the 365 sched is laughable. I have spent a few miserable months in the garden spots of West Africa doing salvage and emergency repairs. many of the hands were Portuguese and Filipinos working 1 year contracts. I’d be willing to wager they’d rather spend their hitch sailing from Houston to Tampa than Warri to Molongo.

As for the divorce rate, 4 month hitches were tough on my first marriage, but I’ve seen more drama on the 7/7 jobs I was on. That why I spent my last 24 years sailing mostly coastwise at 28/28.

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[QUOTE=z-drive;153144]Smoker, the idea these folks have to dismantle the jones act Is to bypass the US build requirement, as well as any cabotage. You speak of visas in the current context, where you’re obviously correct. The majority of FOC seamen I see don’t have proper visas and cannot get shore leave. It’s VERY common. I just don’t see why they would make an anti-jones act push because as you paint it what’s there to gain if you can’t use foreigners?

If they’re not going to eliminate cabotage then why do it? Their whole idea is to open up coastwise trade to whoever wants it. We don’t know what would change, so don’t rule out the whole visa/TWIC system changing.

We shouldn’t be speculating over this nonsense in the first place though![/QUOTE]

That’s precisely what I am trying to point out. All this talk about FoC ships being allowed in is meaningless if FoC sailors to man them are not allowed in and THAT is not going to happen. There are simply way too many laws to change and no country allows that. Heat Miser is right when he says that McCain knows shit about the fundamentals of commerce and economics.

As for speculating on this nonsense, I did say in my 1st post on this thread, why are people getting their knickers in a twist about this and debating this pot fuelled thread?

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[QUOTE=injunear;153145]Reflagging will be the end result if the JA is repealed, period. Then manning will come under the flag/state.

You may think the 365 sched is laughable. I have spent a few miserable months in the garden spots of West Africa doing salvage and emergency repairs. many of the hands were Portuguese and Filipinos working 1 year contracts. I’d be willing to wager they’d rather spend their hitch sailing from Houston to Tampa than Warri to Molongo.

As for the divorce rate, 4 month hitches were tough on my first marriage, but I’ve seen more drama on the 7/7 jobs I was on. That why I spent my last 24 years sailing mostly coastwise at 28/28.[/QUOTE]

injunear, sailing high seas on FoC vessels is different to sailing on FoC vessels in national waters. Understand that difference. Do you seriously think that a Filipino with a Panamanian lic can sail and work locally in Panamanian waters without a work permit? Just think.

As for the rest, cheer up man. Don’t be so serious. I was just joking :slight_smile:

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[QUOTE=injunear;153145]Reflagging will be the end result if the JA is repealed, period. Then manning will come under the flag/state.

You may think the 365 sched is laughable. I have spent a few miserable months in the garden spots of West Africa doing salvage and emergency repairs. many of the hands were Portuguese and Filipinos working 1 year contracts. I’d be willing to wager they’d rather spend their hitch sailing from Houston to Tampa than Warri to Molongo.

As for the divorce rate, 4 month hitches were tough on my first marriage, but I’ve seen more drama on the 7/7 jobs I was on. That why I spent my last 24 years sailing mostly coastwise at 28/28.[/QUOTE]

More drama on the 7/7? Thats interesting, maybe humans can’t adjust at that quick of a cycle, its either all or nothing.

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But who’s to say they can’t come up with some Alphabet soup visa allowing foreigners to work coastwise? There truly are some whacky visa deals out there otherwise. If someone is whacked out enough to eliminate the jones act, who’s to say they’re not whacked out enough to push for a new visa deal, remember if in their minds there aren’t capable american ships then there definitely aren’t capable american mariners!

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[QUOTE=smoker;153147]As for the rest, cheer up man. Don’t be so serious. I was just joking :)[/QUOTE]

My wife accuses me of being only serious about hunting and fishing. John McCain can’t spoil that. As for cheering up, my phone just beeped telling me that my 79th pension check was just deposited. I think I’ll have a shot of Flor de Cana 18 year old…cheers

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[QUOTE=z-drive;153149]But who’s to say they can’t come up with some Alphabet soup visa allowing foreigners to work coastwise? There truly are some whacky visa deals out there otherwise. If someone is whacked out enough to eliminate the jones act, who’s to say they’re not whacked out enough to push for a new visa deal, remember if in their minds there aren’t capable american ships then there definitely aren’t capable american mariners![/QUOTE]

z-drive, that’s not how reality works. That alphabet soup visa will immediately go against the H1 visa regime and the rules which govern it. It’ll also go against the taxation law of this country. The Feds are not going to change all these laws, all because of a misguided, old senator.

This is an insane thread.

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[QUOTE=injunear;153151]My wife accuses me of being only serious about hunting and fishing. John McCain can’t spoil that. As for cheering up, my phone just beeped telling me that my 79th pension check was just deposited. I think I’ll have a shot of Flor de Cana 18 year old…cheers[/QUOTE]

Effer, I am down to my last beer and did not even get to enjoy that, all because of trying to point out facts on this insane thread. Gimme that bottle and then I’ll say, “Cheers”.

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[QUOTE=smoker;153152]z-drive, that’s not how reality works. That alphabet soup visa will immediately go against the H1 visa regime and the rules which govern it. It’ll also go against the taxation law of this country. The Feds are not going to change all these laws, all because of a misguided, old senator.

This is an insane thread.

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Effer, I am down to my last beer and did not even get to enjoy that, all because of trying to point out facts on this insane thread. Gimme that bottle and then I’ll say, “Cheers”.[/QUOTE]

We all have to look at current tax and immigration laws with a jaundiced eye from the way they are passed and then re-written on a whim and or selectively enforced.

I might share some 12 year old but the 18 would have to be pried from my cold dead hands! (to paraphrase)

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[QUOTE=injunear;153153] I might share some 12 year old but the 18 would have to be pried from my cold dead hands! (to paraphrase)[/QUOTE]

You MIGHT??!!? Cruel.

Thanks, but I drink only beer :slight_smile:

Maybe, I should hop & skip my way to c.captain’s table and grab some Belgian Whites, while he is not looking :wink:

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[QUOTE=z-drive;153144]We shouldn’t be speculating over this nonsense in the first place though![/QUOTE]

I agree that this thread is crazy talk and I for one hope it will die immediately and never ever be resurrected. Discussing the dismantlement of all cabotage protection in the US is worse than heresy or blasphemy even to this American mariner’s ear! IT IS LIKE A HIDEOUSLY FILTHY AND UTTERLY DISGUSTING PORNOGRAPHY (and don’t try to tell me you’ve never seem any of THAT!)

NOW ENOUGH! CEASE AND DESIST FORTHWITH!

40

If you have a look at the yachting industry for inspiration, you will find the vast majority are FF. And very frequently staffed with American officers in combination with foreign unlicensed crew that will at least have a STCW BST cert. I personally have worked as master for a FF and owners that felt an American Captain was more desirable for a multitude of reasons. That being said, I’m glad we still have the Jones Act in place.

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[QUOTE=injunear;153128]So how are all of those shuttle tankers operating, crew changing, and many other foreign flag ships crew changing through our ports??[/QUOTE]

A TWIC is required for [U]unescorted[/U] access. Persons without TWICs can have access under escort.