I see the argument as being one for increased funding of the Maritime Security Program over further funding of Kings Point. 20 more ships would benefit the currently jobless and hungry American mariners way more than a school that produces a limited amount of graduates who actually want to sail. The state schools have that covered and don’t cost MARAD near as much.
I have to agree that the money would not easily be shifted to MSP without some political wrangling but it wouldn’t be impossible. I will also refute John’s assertion that companies are not thrilled about MSP. Several companies are operating US flag ships currently outside of MSP and lobbying for additional slots to open up. The company I work for views it as a very profitable niche market and wants to expand it.
There was also a move to create a Tanker Security Program (TSP), but it didn’t make it through. I think the plan was to add 10 tankers to the fleet that would be available if needed - same rules as MSP - don’t have to be US built.
Can anyone adequately define why we need more
US flag ships? Owners have plenty of opportunity now to flag ships US now, and yet, they choose not to. Why is that?
MSP has 60 slots, all full right now. If Congress, wanted more slots, they’d throw more money at it. I don’t think the argument of closing down KP would free up those funds “holds water” (so to speak.) as we all know, ship builders charge the navy huge sums of money to build ships that don’t work, if you want an answer to saving money, look elsewhere .
…,Maybe I’ll answer my own thought just to venture what I think the answer would be: we need more US ships to have a strong merchant marine in times of emergency and war. If we have a bigger merchant marine, we need more sailors. If we have a bigger merchant marine that would require sailors with an obligation to man those ships during times of war, enter persons graduated from the Merchant Marine academy, with said obligation.
Now, coming full circle, do we have a merchant marine fleet large enough to demand those sailors right now? No, but, then again, the argument to shut down KP to send the money over elsewhere doesn’t make sense either, (at least I don’t think anyway.)
The US flag fleet is pathetically small, but, I don’t see how shutting down KP resolves that problem.
But we have the state academies which have the capacity to graduate enough officers with said obligation (SSO’s through their own programs), so what purpose to KP really serve if the government can get the officers from the other 7 Academies?
There is already a shit load of mates/engineers sitting on the beach looking for work, I know because myself and plenty of my friends are part of that group. And every June/July more and more join the group. If we had more ships, there’d be less people on the beach and less people leaving the industry earlier because finding a job is so damn difficult.
Mass (I can’t speak for the other schools but I imagine they’re all on the same page, for the most part) is taking in more and more students each year, so much so that they run out of room in the dorms. The amount of qualified graduates is growing, not shrinking. Do I think closing KP is THE answer? Probably not, but I don’t think it would hurt as much as some people think it will.
Good points Beer. It’s an overwhelming amount of graduates in a saturated industry.
I think you and I diverge a bit on one statement.l though. Those schools have programs for SSO, but, no one is required to be part of it.
One thing I think ALL of the schools really fail to do though is represent ALL the facets of the maritime
Industry, not just deep water shipping. I don’t recall ever being told about brown water, oil patch, inland towing, etc etc.
We should be able to, as an industry, prepare people for other things besides filling slots on 81 ships. But, I find myself coming full circle, I think KP could serve as an interesting outlet for this, and provide training opportunities for other parts of the maritime industry - like GMATS once did. The school could evolve beyond its original purpose.
Could the other schools do this too? Sure, they absolutely could as well. I’m sure I won’t convince anyone who is Adamant KP is useless, but, to those who can appreciate differing points of thought, i present this thought.
But that same argument can be made about KP, no one is forcing those kids to join the SSO program. It’s part of them going to KP, yes, but plenty of them skip out on the obligation. When I was in school there were kids lined up to get into the SSO program but there just wasn’t enough slots. Anyone who actually has to pay for their education and can’t rely on their parents or want to diminish the loans they have to take out would take interest in the program. I do, however see the point you are making. I just personally think if it was really an issue, the schools/government would find a way.
In regards to the second point, I agree. The schools need to do a better job at marketing the other sides of the industry aside from deep sea. I believe I mentioned it either in this thread or one closely related, that the schools need to accept transfer credits and make graduating in 4 years with more than just a standard license possible. I am too young to have experienced GMATS, however from what I understand it was a great program and I do think it’d be great to have a training school that is not affiliated with a union available.
You guys keep mentioning the state academies as if they are fiscally responsible. They are not. They have their own lobbiests and they pour money into k&l gates for political handouts.
And they have $$$ awards dinners where they lift the kimono and pat eachother on the back:
And once the training ships are complete they will cost the taxpayers more than kp.
There is no simple state OR kp OR msp… it’s all a hand out And I support all of it because all our handouts are proportionally in centesimal to the handouts given to agriculture, defense, banks… and the rest.
Even if you reduced federal spending by 50% (which I support) well doubling Maritime subsidies we would still have relatively very little.
There are no absolutes in life, everything is relative to everything else.
Obviously what I said in previous posts is a very general way of describing what could be a potential solution. I’m not going to type out a novel on a forum with how it would have to work down to the finest detail, I’m not smart enough and no one values my opinion enough.
Here’s an absolute I believe in: the system sucks. The system needs to be replaced with a better one.
I’m a young adult who grew up on Harry Potter and The Hunger Games. I still believe systems can be replaced and fixed. You’re… not quite a young adult. You’ve been in the system longer, are more acquainted with the players, and are at the point where you believe all you can do is work within the system. Unfortunately that seems to be the industry wide view, whether it be ashore or at sea. Nothing changes, this is the way it is and we do it this way because that’s how it’s always been done and it’s to much work to change the way it is. To much red tape and politics.
Why do we do it this way?..Because we’ve always done it this way.
But, I think you undervalue your opinion of yourself. Let me put it this way:
Ever tried to sleep with a mosquito in the room? It may not be this forum that solves the problem, but, be that mosquito elsewhere and you’ll get a response.
Not only have I been in the system for longer but it has also jaded me.
But here’s the thing each of us can only use the tools we know how to use to fix the problem. My knowledge of the system, how iy works, and the players is just a tool.
But the tool that getting people’s attention is not my knowledge or connections… it’s youtube. Youtube combined with the truth.
Believe me, I don’t want to be the one standing up and speaking the truth, I’d much rather it be someone with fresh ideas and fresh perspectives. I’d rather it be you.
But until someone from the younger generation uses these tools of social media (which you know how to use better than I) to stand up then… your stuck with me.
The world isn’t changed by the people with the best ideas. It’s changed by the people willing to stand up and speak out.
There are a lot of posters who are talking about KP grads needing to sail US flag before stepping foot on foreign flagged ships. This already exists. The only way you can get an exception for shoreside/foreign flag employment is by applying for a waiver directly to the Maritime Administrator.
As required by Title 46 Appendix United States Code, each student entering the Academy who is a citizen of the United States must sign an agreement committing themselves:
To complete the course of instruction at the Academy, unless separated by the Academy;
To fulfill the requirements for a license as an officer in the merchant marine of the United States on or before the date of graduation from the Academy;
To maintain a license as an officer in the merchant marine of the United States for at least six (6) years following the date of graduation from the Academy;
To apply for, and to accept if tendered, an appointment to serve as a commissioned officer in the U.S. Navy Reserve, (including the Merchant Marine Reserve, U.S. Navy Reserve), U.S. Coast Guard Reserve, or any other Reserve or National Guard unit of an armed force of the United States, for at least eight (8) years following the date of graduation from the Academy;
To serve the foreign and domestic commerce and national defense of the United States in the maritime industry, in one of the occupations approved for USMMA graduates (see below), for at least five (5) years following the date of graduation from the Academy:
As a merchant marine officer serving on vessels documented under the laws of the United States, or on vessels owned and operated by the United States or by any state or territory of the United States;
As a commissioned officer on active duty in an armed force of the United States or in the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA);
As an employee in a United States maritime- related industry, profession or marine science (approved by the Secretary of Transportation), if the Secretary determines that service under subparagraph E.1 above is not available to the individual;
By combining the services specified in subparagraphs E.1, E.2 and E.3; and
To report to the Secretary of Transportation on the compliance with these requirements.
That requirement doesn’t mean squat. You can document a little toy boat built in Taiwan. If you buy it or drive it you serve as an officer on it don’t you?
Why should the USMMA produce little soldiers or airmen? If the students aren’t good enough for a real military academy or they choose not to go ROTC, why should the taxpayer support a boy scout style bypass?
Maritime related? Why should the taxpayer fund the education of a student who can probably get a better NavArch, marine biology, or other degree at a private school. Preparing for a job as an accountant or draftsman at a shipyard shouldn’t be on the taxpayer’s back.
Spend the KP millions on ships or mariners, not dreamers and schemers.
Yes, you are required to ask for a waiver, but there are many KP grads who do not. I’ve met at least three, and they all started doing it that way because they “know someone else who never filled out a waiver and got away with it”
Hell, our SSO liaison in school was an ensign from KP and straight up told us, if they don’t grant you the waiver, just take the job anyways. They can’t do anything about it.
You think MARAD is going to spend any time and money trying to track down these kids and force them to do anything? They can’t enforce shit.
Maine accepted my transfer credits from another ABET accredited school. The problem was with the liscensing class/ Stcw class structure. I pretty much had to do four years anyways, it just left a lot of holes in my schedule which I filled with Navigation classes. I do know of a few people who managed to massage their schedule and workload to get out in three years.
I know of one KP graduate who did not report to reserve drills. Apparently it is not enforced or there are loopholes that excuse one from this requirement. Even some of his own classmates wondered how he got out of it but the lad was not forthcoming with information.
I have hard facts that support people being pursued for being non compliant- from those issuing the letters and those receiving them. I have vague notions of of people being non complaint, without a really perfect understanding if they’re being totally honest or just telling a sea story… I think there’s a lot more brag to some of these than truth… but the truth is probably in between somewhere.
Have been away for a bit. Many opinions thrown around,. One I had to chuckle at was one poster comparing Matsuda to Buzby. Both are alumni, and held/hold similar positions. Buzby may not be your perfect guy, I don’t think any Marad guy will be “Perfect” in your eyes. Buzby has been the most effective one in many decades. Another thing, grouping the few that don’t honor their commitment with the vast majority that do is a blanket statement. There is a recent active investigation into the few that don’t honor their promises. I agree with John that they open and lead companies to employ people and create more taxpayers. Some may have heartburn with that, I don’t.
My answer to C-Captain would be to keep it like it is and bring GMATS back. A fine program open to all mariners. Attended a few courses there and was well run. C-Captain, you may not like my answer, but that’s ok.
I love all the keyboard warriors on here who naïvely think that shutting down KP will somehow magically revive the American maritime industry. This sounds more like a bunch of disgruntled people with inferiority complexes.
The PRIMARY reason KP is still open and will be for the foreseeable future is that the DoD is it’s biggest champion, contrary to the conspiracy theorist on here who think it’s the super powerful alumni association. And before you get your panties in a bunch and say “BUT KP IS FUNDED BY MARAD!!!”, please take a deep breath and remember the only reason we have a deep sea merchant fleet is due to national defense requirements. If the DoD stopped caring about sealift, programs like the MSP would go away in a few budget cycles. The money all comes from the same place in the end anyway.
A bunch of bean counters at the Pentagon who are responsible for national defense manning (not just uniformed personnel but civilian and industry positions) know we need x number of unlimited licensed mariners, with the ability to produce x number of unlimited licensed mariners per year to sustain sealift requirements if a full blown war where to erupt with a near peer like China. The only way the math works out is if KP stays open. This is why you see Air Force and Army Generals from TRANSCOM so adamantly supporting KP.
Before you start frothing at the mouth and start screaming “THE SMA’S COULD INCREASE ENROLLEMENT”, go back and look at an earlier post from John Konrad where he points out that the annual operating cost of KP is 0.0081% of the DoD budget. One F-35 fighter cost more than the annual operating cost of KP and where buying over 2,000 of those. Of course the SMA’s could increase enrollment, but the DoD and MARAD just don’t care. Why would MARAD and the DoD go through the headache and bureaucracy of having to build up six separate state schools to save a few dollars that is insignificant to them. As John Konrad has also pointed out, the SMA’s aren’t even that much cheaper for taxpayer cost/student and this margin will disappear once then new training ships arrive. Would you be willing to waste several weeks shopping around to save a couple cents on your car insurance premium? I didn’t think so and neither is the federal government.
Speaking of insurance policies, that’s ultimately what KP is to our national defense establishment. For a very small amount of money, the federal government has a guaranteed source of unlimited, licensed mariners to support a wartime surge that is centralized and directly controlled by them. All the other issues being discussed here are germane but of secondary importance when discussing the core purpose of KP. The fact that KP produces highly capable graduates who not only serve as licensed deck and engine officers but as military officers and professionals in the shoreside industry is an added bonus.
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