Fighting back against foreign mariners in GoM

Professional Mariner Forum
61

I recently went to Norway and toured several Island Offshore vessels and the Rolls Royce deck machinery and propulsion plants. I went over there particularly to learn the standards and training employed by the maritime training center in Aalesund to possibly implement those standards at Chouest. Mr.Gary is interested in employing an AHTS simulator. Mr.Havard Ulstein (with Island) took me to the Aker and Ulstein shipyards to tour several Island new builds. That is some nice vessels, but you’re looking at 35% more cost to build. The markets are different in Norway. The vessels with the most bells and whistles get the job, but in the GOM, customers look for value for the dollar more than anything.
Talking to the captains, they make around $1500/day when converting the NOK to dollars, but more than half is tax and a hamburger and coke is twenty bucks in Norway…plus it sucks.
I was impressed with the whole maritime culture there. We can easily compete with these guys; you have to remember their mentality and how their whole country is wrapped around that culture.

HOS is paying $800/day for Master on the large specialty vessel HOS Acheiver. That is a fair day rate for an unlimited master.

62

The Ships built in Norway are Government subsidized aren’t they?

63

I think that if not directly subsidized by the Norwegian Government, the State Bank (Kristiana Bank) has always had a very well developed program for lending to Norwegian companies to build vessels in Norwegian yards. Kinda like our Federal Reserve offering ship mortgages at 2%. To me this is an indirect subsidy.

My understanding is that is generally very easy to get financing for vessel projects be they offshore, fisheries, cargo, cruise, etc… for just about any Norwegian. This is because of the nation having a huge cash reserve put aside from their oil revenues over the years, a maritime culture and business focus and a strong desire to keep Norwegian money in Norway. Of course, they also want to create jobs for Norwegian seafarers and thus pretty much demand the the vessels built there be Norwegian flagged and manned. I believe the Norway sector of the North Sea is pretty much restricted to only Norwegian vessels if I am not mistaken.

Sounds like a pretty swell system…sure would be nice if our Government put laws into place so we could have the same system for U.S. waters.

Wait a minute…we’ve got the laws already on the books for this to happen…why aren’t they being enforced?

64

When I was in Norway, the personnel manager at Island Offshore said that the Norwegian Maritime Directorate was currently working with the US on allowing Americans to work on Norwegian vessels.

Reference RSV 08-2007

65

This would be great if it happened but the Circular is dated 15 September 2007…it’s now a year and a half later.

How are we to know if they really intend to enact this? I have worked with them in the Bering Sea and my experiece is that the Norwegians would rather have anyone BUT Americans. There was another clear cut case of a huge giveaway to the Norkies by the USCG and NMFS…fishing vessels are supposed to be US built, manned and owned but the vast majority of factory trawlers that were delivered to Dutch Harbor in the late 80’s andearly 90’s were in essence Norwegian built, financed by Kristiana Bank and had Norwegian’s onboard who told the Americans in the crew what to do including the nominal US master! Only after years of this did the Government realize what they had done and Americanized the industry although all the vessels kept their US fisheries endorsements.

Did anyone there give you any honest indication that they wanted to do this? Do any of the many Norwegian vessels now in the GoM have an American serving in any capacity in their crews?

66

Angela (with Island) would consider any qualified applicant that’s recognized. I was actually interested, but she’s the one that gave me the policy letter. I’ll be going to the OI vessel in the coming weeks to learn the heave-comp crane and write policy as Chouest is having three comparable cranes delivered this year, but not as a registered seaman.

Edited to add: Not sure about the time frame of the policy letter. Maybe JdCavo would know about this obvious lengthy process, but you can get a UK license by taking a one week UK government module at MPT provided you have an unlimited Master license.

67

[QUOTE=c.captain;8640]This would be great if it happened but the Circular is dated 15 September 2007…it’s now a year and a half later.

How are we to know if they really intend to enact this? I have worked with them in the Bering Sea and my experiece is that the Norwegians would rather have anyone BUT Americans. There was another clear cut case of a huge giveaway to the Norkies by the USCG and NMFS…fishing vessels are supposed to be US built, manned and owned but the vast majority of factory trawlers that were delivered to Dutch Harbor in the late 80’s andearly 90’s were in essence Norwegian built, financed by Kristiana Bank and had Norwegian’s onboard who told the Americans in the crew what to do including the nominal US master! Only after years of this did the Government realize what they had done and Americanized the industry although all the vessels kept their US fisheries endorsements.

Did anyone there give you any honest indication that they wanted to do this? Do any of the many Norwegian vessels now in the GoM have an American serving in any capacity in their crews?[/QUOTE]

Hello, first of all. how would the GOM be with your old ship/wessel or what i see most in the GOM ‘‘barges’’ your equpment is old same as the technology, 50 years back in time. try to follow the rest of the world, and develope your self. The biggest problem over here in the US and A, is you have no fu… idea wath is going on in the international marked, laws and regulation, you are just beliving that your national laws and regulations is international… And I also see you think you now how to get financing of wessel in Norway, souns like info from kindergarten,bullshit . I can but I wont tell you, maybe there is a reason why the gulf is full of old crap/shit.

why do you think Norwegian’s onboard told the Americans in the crew what to do including the nominal US master ?? I have been in this country long enough to see that all superintendent’s working for us, is also from an another country. still we are chartered for a company in the usa. do I need to say more ? Altough I have never heard anyone shout,scream,brash like american workers and leaders do.incredible…

The biggest problem for the norwegian offshore company is to make people stay in this shit place, officer’s are escaping from the wessel’s sailing in the gulf because of big lack off what i mention above…

concerning global orion, that is the biggest bullshit i ever heard, many from the original crew were offered and beg hard to stay and start work for global.

Did you she the wessel when her name was olympic orion ? i guess you have.
but you should se her now, she looks like trash and how long did it take for the american glory seamenn to make her that way. i also now that the pilot’s in these days are afraid taiking here in due too many things that i dont need to mention, but i can say that the pilot’s were impressed as long it was in olympic hands. after only 6 months, its sad, very sad…

please dont forget in these days, the million’s the norwegian companies and sailors are spending in your country each day. so back the f…offf: mad::mad::mad:

68

[I]SIMPLY PRICELESS:[/I]

[quote=norwayornoway;8669]Hello, first of all. how would the GOM be with your old ship/wessel or what i see most in the GOM ‘‘barges’’ your equpment is old same as the technology, 50 years back in time. try to follow the rest of the world, and develope your self. The biggest problem over here in the US and A, is you have no fu… idea wath is going on in the international marked, laws and regulation, you are just beliving that your national laws and regulations is international… And I also see you think you now how to get financing of wessel in Norway, souns like info from kindergarten,bullshit . I can but I wont tell you, maybe there is a reason why the gulf is full of old crap/shit.

why do you think Norwegian’s onboard told the Americans in the crew what to do including the nominal US master ?? I have been in this country long enough to see that all superintendent’s working for us, is also from an another country. still we are chartered for a company in the usa. do I need to say more ? Altough I have never heard anyone shout,scream,brash like american workers and leaders do.incredible…

The biggest problem for the norwegian offshore company is to make people stay in this shit place, officer’s are escaping from the wessel’s sailing in the gulf because of big lack off what i mention above…

concerning global orion, that is the biggest bullshit i ever heard, many from the original crew were offered and beg hard to stay and start work for global.

Did you she the wessel when her name was olympic orion ? i guess you have.
but you should se her now, she looks like trash and how long did it take for the american glory seamenn to make her that way. i also now that the pilot’s in these days are afraid taiking here in due too many things that i dont need to mention, but i can say that the pilot’s were impressed as long it was in olympic hands. after only 6 months, its sad, very sad…

please dont forget in these days, the million’s the norwegian companies and sailors are spending in your country each day. so back the f…offf: mad::mad::mad:[/quote]

Gentlemen:

I need not offer any further evidence than that so eloquently provided in the previous post by Herr Norwayornoway to more clearly close my case about the arrogance of Norwegians and the utter distain they have for the U.S. and Americans. They hate us as professionals, they hate our vessels, they hate our Nation…oh, but how they want our money!

They are taking our jobs and when the truth emerges, this is their reaction! To think that we have opened our waters to them and to be so absolutely disrespected as thanks!

Well, I for one would like to thank you my fine Nordic friend for helping me so well to prove to my fellow American mariners here the accuracy of my statements. I hope they will join me in roundly giving you a very loud collective rhaspberry

cheers!

69

yea right. i would if i could. but since the riggs and plattforms dont keep on falling down in norway i have to go to other countrys, with other kinds of constructions. i would like to like americans, but the great welcome i get when i get to the country is just the start… why cant americans instead of having problem with norwegians, for once learn just a little bit of them. it would not hurt your country at all. please, we do not want your money or what so ever. i think you should take a look at the internal problem like why you do not have : hi teck fleet, why the american companys chartering ship from other countrys ?

[quote=c.captain;8670][I]SIMPLY PRICELESS:[/I]

Gentlemen:

I need not offer any further evidence than that so eloquently provided in the previous post by Herr Norwayornoway to more clearly close my case about the arrogance of Norwegians and the utter distain they have for the U.S. and Americans. They hate us as professionals, they hate our vessels, they hate our Nation…oh, but how they want our money!

They are taking our jobs and when the truth emerges, this is their reaction! To think that we have opened our waters to them and to be so absolutely disrespected as thanks!

Well, I for one would like to thank you my fine Nordic friend for helping me so well to prove to my fellow American mariners here the accuracy of my statements. I hope they will join me in roundly giving you a very loud collective rhaspberry or better yet to turn their posteriors towards your fine country and[B][I]…TO FART IN YOUR GENERAL DIRECTION![/I][/B]

cheers![/quote]

70

please somebody tell me…is this for real or is it just a setup?

if he’s for real then this guy’s a gift from heaven!

71

I understand that you do not like Norwegians. But what would some of the great american ships been whit out the norwegian technology?. But I like to comment some facts written by the Anchorman. I happen to now many of the masters of the biggest norwegian anchorhandlers. They do not earn $1500/day. They earn $400 a day, but also get the same pay when they are at home. They have fixed sallary. But you got the price on the hamburger and the coke right, I guess it can be even more expensive. Unless you buy the burger at McDonalds wich is owned by americans, than you get the same for $10-12. I have my opinion on the food from McDonalds, an that is the same as you comment on the norwagian food. In February 2003 the Edison Chouest offshore fleet took delivery of Laney Chouest, wich apparently was the biggest anchorhandler in the world at that time. Well I am sure it was. It is still an impressive vessel. But take a look at he impressive vessel. What makes this vessel so impressive. Well the vessel is powered by MaK wich is an german made engine, all tough Mak is no owned 80% by Catrerpillar. Why did they choose Mak?, probably because there do not excist any american made engines in this medium speed category. So they also have impressive winches delivered by Brattvåg. Well that is also an Norwegian company. They got big side thrusters, who made them. Well answer is they same. They are designed and buildt in Norway. Laney Chouest is equiped with an 350t A-frame. Impressive, but where is it made?. Well it is made in Norway, by Hydramarine in Kr.Sand. So why did not Eddison Chouest offshore not buy this equipment in USA. In stead og getting it from Norway. Well I will tell you, because Norway make the best equipent in the world for this buisness. So looks like norway have made some contributions to the great american ships. At least americans spend money in norway. Why do not american vessels trade the north sea market if the money is good?. Well they have tried. Tidewater sent some state of the art diesel electric anchorhandlers few years ago. But they ended up as cargo running vessels because they did not as I know complete, any rig move at all. And if you take a look at Tidewater, wich apparently has one of the largest offshore fleet in the world.Who have designed, buildt and delivered a lot of equipment to these vessels? I am sorry to say this, but it is norwegians. again.Why?.. And americans are alway welcome to join the north sea market. Few years ago, Deep Sea supply bought 6 anchorhandlers from Tidewater. The vessels was of KMAR 404 design, wich is Norwegian. They where buildt in 1998-99. In Norway. They also bought one of the same kind from Bourbon Norway. It was called Bourbon Charisma. She was buildt at the same time as the 6 vessels from Tidewater. Well I have been onboard, 3 of the earlier Tiewater owned anchorhandlers, ran buy american seamen, and all 3 look like shit. And that is putting it mildly. But the norwegian one looks real good. I am happy to send you pictures if you want to. But the maintenancework done by the american seamen was not good, I am sorry. So looks like norwegians now something about the offshore Industry too. Not only the americans. Have a nice day all of you

72

Never said that I don’t like your vessels…I actually think they are the best in the world.

What I don’t like are men like you and the owners of the vessels you work on who want to be in our desirable market but don’t want to play by our rules and use all the loopholes they can to get out of following them.

How do you feel about Brazilians? Do you hold then in the same contempt that you hold for us Americans? How about Australians?

Tell me, when a Norwegian vessel goes to Brazil or Australia, do they operate there with their Norwegian crews? Didn’t think so, but plenty of Norwegian vessels going to work in those markets just like the GoM! It’s just that those governments don’t let vessels operate in their markets with foreign labor!

Can’t blame your employers though because they are getting away with it here since our government has been letting them for many years now. Hopefully, that’s gonna change soon then you can go back to the North Sea where everything and everybody is superior to us lowly Americans in the Gulf!

You’re welcome to leave anytime Stig and as the saying goes “don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out”!

73

[quote=c.captain;8670][I]SIMPLY PRICELESS:[/I]

Gentlemen:

I need not offer any further evidence than that so eloquently provided in the previous post by Herr Norwayornoway to more clearly close my case about the arrogance of Norwegians and the utter distain they have for the U.S. and Americans. They hate us as professionals, they hate our vessels, they hate our Nation…oh, but how they want our money!

They are taking our jobs and when the truth emerges, this is their reaction! To think that we have opened our waters to them and to be so absolutely disrespected as thanks!

Well, I for one would like to thank you my fine Nordic friend for helping me so well to prove to my fellow American mariners here the accuracy of my statements. I hope they will join me in roundly giving you a very loud collective rhaspberry or better yet to turn their posteriors towards your fine country and[B][I]…TO FART IN YOUR GENERAL DIRECTION![/I][/B]

cheers![/quote]

As well, I’m very thankful for our Norwegian friend for dropping by to visit with us. One thing that he has clearly done, is illuminate for all of us how big a jack ass you are, and how little exposure you have to the rest of the maritime world beyond our U.S. shores.

What it tells me, is that you in no way, shape, or form, have any business criticizing, or commenting on, things you don’t know about.

And you wondered earlier in your other pearls of wit where the term “Ugly American” originated from. Take a look in the mirror, and know the answer.

Cheers!!!

74

First, I can understand a reaction of this type as it was precipitated by derogatory comments. It’s disingenuous to say Norwegians are arrogant by an obvious reaction to this negativity, but at the same time, you have proven that Norway has its share of idiots as your persona comes from the same grain of cloth as c.captain’s. I doubt either party would be considered a representation of professional seamanship for either country because you both lack the humility to lead and respect each other. My comments are very accurate, including the pay scale, which was that of Island Offshore’s Master on the Island Vanguard. The only bitch that the captain had was that some vessels and rigs went to 2 weeks on/ 4 weeks off and made the same pay as him. He worked equal time. The only thing that I can say is either you’re getting shafted on pay, or I was blatantly lied to. Unless proven otherwise, I’ll believe the nice Norwegian Captain that I met in Kristensen. Maybe, after taxes, you have $400 left over…which I believe.
I worked as a captain on the Laney Chouest for over 5 years before working on policy for management. I’ve also been to IPHuse where the winches were custom built to our design. All equipment has its problems. Norwegian equipment is no different. One of our most reliable winches is US made. It’s the same on both sides. We do employ a good bit of Norwegian, US, and German equipment. I’m sure you had as much to do with designing Norwegian propulsion and deck machinery as I had to do with designing the B-17 “Flying Fortress”. FYI, That’s the plane that has you reading this in english and not german.
As far as maintenance of equipment. Chouest has always been top notch in this category…or you will be fired…end of story. Have a nice day! :slight_smile:

75

[QUOTE=El Capitan;8679]As well, I’m very thankful for our Norwegian friend for dropping by to visit with us. One thing that he has clearly done, is illuminate for all of us how big a jack ass you are, and how little exposure you have to the rest of the maritime world beyond our U.S. shores.

What it tells me, is that you in no way, shape, or form, have any business criticizing, or commenting on, things you don’t know about.

And you wondered earlier in your other pearls of wit where the term “Ugly American” originated from. Take a look in the mirror, and know the answer.

Cheers!!!
[/QUOTE]

Thank you. Well, I will comment things that i mean is wrong. The written stuff by c.captain is clearly propaganda and out of
sense. And if you dont se it you are not better your self. Speaking about things I do not know about, give me an example.
I mention a lot that c.captain did not know what he was talking about, but I did no get any comments from that ??

FYI : almost every ship from norway which is working in the GOM, has been flag out from Norway. I can also explain
when that happens, the norwegian crew is fired and chieper labour is hired. except for officers though. We dont look in the
mirror, we are heading for the future, jack ass.

76

[quote=norwayornoway;8696]

FYI : almost every ship from norway which is working in the GOM, has been flag out from Norway. I can also explain
when that happens, the norwegian crew is fired and chieper labour is hired. except for officers though. We dont look in the
mirror, we are heading for the future, jack ass.[/quote]

Flagged “out” to the [U][I]Norwegian International Shipregister[/I][/U] just like every other Norwegian owned vessel working out of Norway. Non Norwegian unlicensed seamen working aboard for two reasons. Cheaper than Norwegian seamen but also more plentiful. You can’t get a young Norwegian to work his way up from the deck so who do they get to fill those berths…Phillipinios. I’ve worked with Phillipino seamen who are excellent, but I have also worked with US seamen who are hard workers and care about their profession as well. Many aren’t and that is something in the US that we need to deal with…but there are also certified US seamen on this board who can’t find a job right now and should have the jobs the law says they have a right to.

77

What I don’t like is you trashtalking my Country and fellow countrymen in my Country…we have been allowing you to work here and you show no gratitude or humility whatsoever. Rather you speak of Americans with condescention. I may hit hard with my words but these are ships with your country’s flag and with your countrymen working aboard in OUR waters. What if the tables were turned and it was Americans trashtalking Norwegians in the North Sea?

I won’t blame you for all of this or the owners of your ship…they have just found loopholes in our laws to continue to operate their vessels in our waters which I am sure is very nice for them. I blame the USCG for allowing them to use these loopholes and advocate the U.S. Congress close those. Brazil and Australia are two countries with strict laws concerning the use of foreign manning on vessels working in their waters. Do not Norwegians send their vessels to those countries to work and replace the crews on those vessels with men from the host country?

I like your ships tough…they’re be best in the world and fitted with the best equipment. Nothing wrong with our offshore vessels however…the old ones are not even part of this discussion. The new ones being built by North American and other shipyards are using European equipment but they still are American built ships. Nothing wrong with this since there are no US companies making Euro standard equipment today. Wish this weren’t the case and hope that someday it changes.

78

[QUOTE=c.captain;8698]Flagged “out” to the [U][I]Norwegian International Shipregister[/I][/U] just like every other Norwegian owned vessel working out of Norway. Non Norwegian working seamen aboard for two reasons. Cheaper than Norwegian seamen but also more plentiful. You can’t get a young Norwegian to work his way up from the deck so who do they get to fill those berths…Phillipinios[/QUOTE]

In Norway you must start working your way up from deck to get the necessary papers refer to STCW, maybe its not the same rules here.

79

You don’t have any merchant marine academies there? Do not the vast majority of young Norwegians entering the industry go to those schools? Is there a shortage of jobs for those Norwegian officers when they graduate?

If they work on deck it is because that is the system which is a good one but tell me if there is a shortage of opportunities for Norwegians who don’t go to school or a shorage of those Norwegians?

80

[QUOTE=c.captain;8699]What I don’t like is you trashtalking my Country and fellow countrymen in my Country…we have been allowing you to work here and you show no gratitude or humility whatsoever. Rather you speak of Americans with condescention. I may hit hard with my words but these are ships with your country’s flag and with your countrymen working aboard in OUR waters. What if the tables were turned and it was Americans trashtalking Norwegians in the North Sea?

I won’t blame you for all of this or the owners of your ship…they have just found loopholes in our laws to continue to operate their vessels in our waters which I am sure is very nice for them. I blame the USCG for allowing them to use these loopholes and advocate the U.S. Congress close those. Brazil and Australia are two countries with strict laws concerning the use of foreign manning on vessels working in their waters. Do not Norwegians send their vessels to those countries to work and replace the crews on those vessels with men from the host country?

I like your ships tough…they’re be best in the world and fitted with the best equipment. Nothing wrong with our offshore vessels however…the old ones are not even part of this discussion. The new ones being built by North American and other shipyards are using European equipment but they still are American built ships. Nothing wrong with this since there are no US companies making Euro standard equipment today. Wish this weren’t the case and hope that someday it changes.[/QUOTE]

Yes in brazil it is like that, i do not remember how many percent of the crew which had too be brazilian if we go there. i now last time we had a wessel there we did not replace our crew but hiring extra crew

in austria, we have now found the solution to override theyr rules. but we are not sending our ships there before everything is clear.we have found some loopholes, but i can not tell more from that because i dont know