El Faro NTSB Document Release 13 Dec, 2016

Professional Mariner Forum
21

From the transcript - the crew discusses the ride

These are not conversations - just snippets having to do with specific terms (rolling etc)

2M 00:52:22.9 00:52:35.2
relative wind is– you know we’re going twenty knots so you wouldn’t feel it much. we’re not– not rolling

AB-2 00:52:33.5 00:52:42.7
I know. I know sooner or later we’ll be rolling. something’s going to happen.

2M 01:05:30.2 01:05:35.1
(I think also)– (were) rolling or pitching a little bit more. [Spoken during the sound of a yawn]

AB-2 01:18:26.0 01:18:29.3

    • *. * one roll we took
      .
      AB-2 01:18:32.7 01:18:35.5
      biggest one since I’ve been up here.

2M 01:18:36.1 01:18:40.5
we’re right between the islands– sooo. wondering why we’re rolling? [sound of quiet laugh]

2M 02:35:47.0 02:36:03.8
well– the upside is– we’re pitching not rolling. (ya know/although)– for whatever reason– pitching gets me more seasick than rolling. cause rolling I can do all day. pitching– eh– not so much

2M 02:35:47.0 02:36:03.8
well– the upside is– we’re pitching not rolling. (ya know/although)– for whatever reason– pitching gets me more seasick than rolling. cause rolling I can do all day. pitching– eh– not so much

2M
03:42:15.5
03:42:23.7
let’s do one-one-zero. (we’ll) just do it bit by bit. startin’ to roll now so
you gotta come over to port.

2M 03:43:49.0 03:44:01.2
we’re riding nice on that course for the past two minutes (now) * * *(should) * * * (over more) * * * so. and we’re getting set.

2M 03:46:44.1 03:46:55.6
it’s uh– she’s been holdin’ pretty good. um– when you get uh the good slams and the good pitches she might lose it a little bit but overall she’s been holdin’ good knock on wood.

2M 03:47:10.7 03:47:15.3
she’ll come back. she did that a couple of times just because uh– we pitched so bad.

CAPT? 04:10:22.2 04:10:24.2
there’s nothing bad about this ride.

CAPT
04:11:13.2
04:11:19.1
roll. I mean we’re not even rollin’. we’re not even pitchin’ we’re not

pounding.

CAPT 04:12:22.0 04:12:25.8
it’s not (workin’/worth it) * * rollin’.

Later the talk shifts to the heel:

CM 04:12:43.7 04:12:48.4
cap’n yeah we’re goin’ like this huh I’m guessin’ it’s on the port bow and…

CAPT 04:12:48.5 04:12:49.7
port side yeah.

CM 04:12:49.5 04:12:50.1
(yeah/wind).

CAPT 04:12:51.9 04:12:56.3
the only way to do a counter on this is to fill the port side ramp tank up.

CM 04:12:56.6 04:13:03.2

      • (starboard to port) * * * (no places for any others).
        CAPT 04:13:03.1 04:13:03.7
        yeah.

CM 04:13:05.0 04:13:06.1
heel is not bad.

CAPT 04:13:06.1 04:13:06.6
huh?

CAPT? 04:13:07.0 04:13:12.7
no– no– no (not at all) * * *. * * the only thing I can conjure up.

CAPT 04:28:04.8 04:28:26.0
right now we’re poundin’ a little bit because we’re goin more easterly– (ya know) we’re holding (our/that) * right rudder. um gotta let her get up to speed. get a little bit more (more/toward) our course. not * too much. need the R-P-Ms.

CM-ET 04:37:27.7 04:37:29.1
yeah we’re heelin’ over *.

Then the E/R reports problems:

CM-ET 04:40:33.7 04:40:54.3
captain– chief mate. the chief engineer just called and (then/they) called back again (yeah) something about the list and oil levels * *

CAPT 04:43:25.8 04:43:28.7
wants to take the list off. so let’s put it in hand steering.

CAPT-ET 04:43:45.6 04:43:47.8
how are you? you want us to take the list off a little bit?

CAPT 04:44:49.4 04:44:56.4

    • just the list. the sumps are actin’ up * . to be expected.

CM 05:01:02.0 05:01:18.9
expecting the wind to come around here to the bow and then to the starboard side. I can still– I can still see the spray foam to the starboard. we’re still heelin’.

SUP-1 05:11:33.2 05:11:38.9
I’ve never seen it list like this– you gotta be takin’ more than a container stack * I’ve never seen it hang like this.

CAPT 05:11:39.5 05:11:42.4
(never?)– we certainly have the sail area.

SUP-1 05:11:41.8 05:11:43.9
yeah (happened last night/had the list I didn’t) think it was seven.

CAPT 05:11:44.0 05:11:50.3
how does that affect below your operations as far as lube oil(s) and *.

SUP-1 05:11:50.3 05:12:01.5
(you hit) the low pressure alarm on the lube oil * * * (stuck) * * * level of the engine * * *.

SUP-1 05:12:08.5 05:12:10.5
never even seen it hang like that before.

CAPT 05:12:11.2 05:12:13.2
yeah * * you got a lot of sail area.

CAPT 05:12:21.8 05:12:24.7
so we haven’t really pounded at all.

SUP-1 05:12:24.7 05:12:25.6
no– that’s– that’s
…
CAPT 05:12:25.9 05:12:29.6
(we we) a couple– (but todays * though) we’re not pounding.

At 0512 report of water on #3 hold:

SUP-1 05:12:24.7 05:12:25.6
no– that’s– that’s
…
CAPT 05:12:25.9 05:12:29.6
(we we) a couple– (but todays * though) we’re not pounding.

CAPT 05:15:07.7 05:15:14.0
uh its @CE– you know he’s got a problem like you said a low level.

CM 05:18:55.6 05:19:00.4

    • yeah * * (eighteen) degree list on * * *.

CAPT-ET 05:43:36.4 05:43:38.5
we (got) a prrroooblem.

CAPT-ET 05:43:39.6 05:43:41.3
three hold? ok.

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[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;193439]From the transcript - the crew discusses the ride

These are not conversations - just snippets having to do with specific terms (rolling etc)

Later the talk shifts to the heel:

Then the E/R reports problems:

At 0512 report of water on #3 hold:[/QUOTE]

Have you seen any documents or testimony from the shipyards in this docket? Atlantic Marine had spent more time crawling around the vessel than ABS and USCG combined. And where is Vigor’s report on the problems they intended to fix when the ship headed west??

23

[QUOTE=cmjeff;193457]Have you seen any documents or testimony from the shipyards in this docket? Atlantic Marine had spent more time crawling around the vessel than ABS and USCG combined. And where is Vigor’s report on the problems they intended to fix when the ship headed west??[/QUOTE]

Thats so interesting. Here I was trying to figure out where John was getting his gcaptain reader comments from in his NTSB investigation “failed” (despite not concluded) video, especially his calls for the shipyards to be questioned, and bam–two new posts asking about shipyards.

Hmm… why would folks be looking for info from shipyards when so much already points to human factors as the most likely cause… I suppose a legal team for a couple party of interest would like the investigators to get anyone with any form of derogatory info on the stand. While the investigation reports are prohibited from civil proceedings, it is a free look into prospective testimony and material witnesses to subpoena for litigation. Pre shipyard inspection reports would make a useful bit of discovery for a seaworthiness claim, even if the facts aren’t leading in that direction as a contributing factor…how to get a look at such reports though?

24

[QUOTE=Jamesbrown;193459]Thats so interesting. Here I was trying to figure out where John was getting his gcaptain reader comments from in his NTSB investigation “failed” (despite not concluded) video, especially his calls for the shipyards to be questioned, and bam–two new posts asking about shipyards.[/QUOTE]

I stole the idea from John’s video but John said he got it from some MIT professors book called The Tankship Comedy.

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[QUOTE=cmjeff;193457]Have you seen any documents or testimony from the shipyards in this docket? Atlantic Marine had spent more time crawling around the vessel than ABS and USCG combined. And where is Vigor’s report on the problems they intended to fix when the ship headed west??[/QUOTE]

I have been through many shipyards and I consider it a fools errand to expect a repair yard such as Atlantic Marine, or any repair yard really, to be more aware of a ships condition than the ones who have done the pre-shipyard surveys, company port engineers assigned to the ship, and if they are worth their salt, the ship’s personnel. I watched a portion of John’s video but stopped when he talked about the Naval Architects at Atlantic Marine…During my shipyard time at Atlantic (now BAE) the only Naval Architects around were the ones my company hired for a specific project.

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First, Jeff’s was one of our first forum members and if you look back through Jeff’s history his sole purpose for posting seems to be to call me out on st!t I say… which is fine becuase we are friends and both Jeff and I know I don’t get everything rigt. Neither does he (e.g. The book is Tankship Tromedy, not comedy)!

Second, some of those items came from this forum (e.g the epirb and USCG’s failure to recovery anything… a question that consumed this thread some days ago). The others cane from the myriad of danm ways people contact me including PM’s, emails, texts, personal facebook messages, gcaptain facebook messegaes, facebook comments, twitter messages… the list goes on.

Third, go ahead, anyones allowed to call me outand I’m just as interested in the answers as Jeff.

Finally, I never said Atlantic Marine had Naval Architects… I mentioned in house NA’s when I was talking about the trend for newbuild shipyards to do everything in house… that was not meant to include AM… but, ok, I can see the confusion. I am admittedly am not a pro newscaster.

And to be clear I also said that the shipyard stuff pertains mostly to the yard that constructed the vessel and, due to her age, it would be a waste of time to track down files from the original builder (sun shipbuilding which failed in '89). In reference to Atlantic and Vigor I just want to know what they now. What emails, work records, etc do they have? Or is that an unreasanvle question??

27

[QUOTE=cmjeff;193460]I stole the idea from John’s video but John said he got it from some MIT professors book called The Tankship Comedy.[/QUOTE]

The Tankship Tromedy The Impending Disasters in Tankers by Jack Devanney It’s been making the rounds for years, no one in a position to change things gives a shit.

28

[QUOTE=cmjeff;193460]I stole the idea from John’s video but John said he got it from some MIT professors book called The Tankship Comedy.[/QUOTE]

Tankship Tromedy. And it is a worthwhile read. Like much reading, it deserves a critical eye. I found Johns video, like his recent articles on a similar line, amusing, and a little worrying as it should be for any fan of gcaptain. I can’t believe he spent an hour on a video of rants about NTSB investigation with the title noted as it was --‘failed’ --when they aren’t done! But maybe that’s the point… And with the release of the info by NTSB, any effort to shine a light on anything may either remove a spotlight from the master, or at least make it less dim. There’s something out of sorts with this very public set of attacks on the ‘failed’ investigation by CG and NTSB, and even his way of talking about it. He tries to go out of his way to talk about the readers’ complaints, but I don’t buy it. The forum is loaded with fairly thoughtful analysis of new data, mostly conforming to older theories, eager to learn more and knowing the investigation proceeds. Despite his claims and concerns being readers’ concerns, he uses the phrase ‘I want’ quite a bit, as well as the word ‘hot seat’ and even ‘trial’ at one point. Demands certain parties see the hot seat —who already gave evidence… I don’t get it, even if he was fairly unabashed at declaring himself anti-shoreside, in response to an earlier comment I made about his articles… But the energy he seems to want to bring to impeaching the investigations, seeking any effort to get attention anywhere but the Master, despite acknowledging his likely overwhelming fault… Lots of dog-whistling politics if I may say. So much, an actual dog shows up and won’t shut up! In any case, I trust the investigators, and I don’t see any ‘failure’ since they aren’t close to done. Anyone with a dog-whistle at this point is someone with something at stake.

29

[QUOTE=john;193462]Jeff’s history his sole purpose for posting seems to be to call me out on st!t I say.[/QUOTE]

[B]Damn right[/B] pal, somebody’s got to keep you honest! :smiley:

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[QUOTE=cmjeff;193466][B]Damn right[/B] pal, somebody’s got to keep you honest! :D[/QUOTE]

While not meaning to be too critical, it is fair to say that journalists may be really bad at covering maritime matters and mariners may be just as bad at journalism.

“Caught On Camera – Boater Crashes Into Washington State Ferry” is just as bad as many of the newspaper headlines that seem to have been written by a cub reporter in Kansas.

31

[QUOTE=john;193462]First, Jeff’s was one of our first forum members and if you look back through Jeff’s history his sole purpose for posting seems to be to call me out on st!t I say… which is fine becuase we are friends and both Jeff and I know I don’t get everything rigt. Neither does he (e.g. The book is Tankship Tromedy, not comedy)!

Second, some of those items came from this forum (e.g the epirb and USCG’s failure to recovery anything… a question that consumed this thread some days ago). The others cane from the myriad of danm ways people contact me including PM’s, emails, texts, personal facebook messages, gcaptain facebook messegaes, facebook comments, twitter messages… the list goes on.

Third, go ahead, anyones allowed to call me outand I’m just as interested in the answers as Jeff.

And to be clear I also said that the shipyard stuff pertains mostly to the yard that constructed the vessel and, due to her age, it would be a waste of time to track down files from the original builder (sun shipbuilding which failed in '89). In reference to Atlantic and Vigor I just want to know what they now. What emails, work records, etc do they have? Or is that an unreasanvle question??[/QUOTE]

first–want another friend like that?

second-- good to hear, did you try to relay to investigators at elfaro@uscg.mil? I have found them responsive.

Third–good to hear, I worry you might take disagreement personally.

fourth–unreasonable? not if, say, the vessel was missing, like the POET where you gather every last witness report you can find. but, scope of inquiry in investigation should follow facts. This vessel is not unique, and if her sisters didn’t sink after so many years, often maintained by same party, then it’s time to wonder what the deltas were, and here we come back to human factors and the last voyage of the EL FARO. I imagine several folks would like to know what the shipyards know for reasons which have little to do with improving safety for the Mariners. We live in an era of litigation that needs no reason just imagination. Which is why it’s nice when an independent body like the NTSB and what I consider an honest agency like the coast guard can engage in earnest investigations and logical development of causes and effects with the factionalism of litigating parties. Those parties can serve a purpose too, throw meat to them and you will soon see what makes up meat… I’ll be honest, you appear to be criticizing unfairly two agencies who have no dog in the fight, They deserve more faith, and latitude to show they are being thorough. These people are driven by the same spirit that informed the MARINE ELECTRIC investigator Captain Dom.

32

Steamer your right. Mariners trying to be journalists is almost (and I say Almost… not fully) as bad as journalists trying to be mariners. That exactly is why I hired Tom Shroder to esit my book and why I hope to build gCaptain to the point where we can have both journalists and marine experts working under the same roof! But good journalists are almost as expensive as good mariners… until we can afford both all I can do is have pro journalists revoew our work.

JB, sure I’ll take more freinds like Jeff because, I firmly believe, if you’re not wiling to question yourself then you got no business questioning anyone else!

Want know what I really think about the El Faro?? I really think that the entire trial and 99% of what’s published (including the atuff in this thread) is complete bullshit. We will NEVER KNOW why the captain made such a completely iratiobal descision. NEVER and all the trying to find out is a waste.

And this isn’t the first time I’m saying this… the first el faro editorial I puvlished as editor made the point abundantly clear: http://gcaptain.com/we-wont-learn-anything-what-sank-el-faro-and-what-didnt/

So why am I doing the video? Simply because there is a lot going wrong out there and if we, as a nation and an industry continue to insist that we invest a whole lot of time and money into solving an impossible problem (i.e. Figuring out what in hell the Capt was thinking) then we might as well use that time an money to figure out what else is wrong and fix that.

And if at stake were just the industry’s time and money I probably wouldn’t even care… but that’s not all that’s at stake guys!! If we don’t steer the investigation towards real problems then they are going to find bon existant problems and create laws that will keep us in the office filling out more Bullshit paperwork that doesn’t solve one danm thing but does prevent us from spending time one deck and on the brisge… the two placea that WILL prevent future incidents!

Note: this post will self destruct in 10-9-8-7…

33

[QUOTE=cmjeff;193457]Have you seen any documents or testimony from the shipyards in this docket? Atlantic Marine had spent more time crawling around the vessel than ABS and USCG combined. And where is Vigor’s report on the problems they intended to fix when the ship headed west??[/QUOTE]

No, but I’m not really looking at the big picture, I’ve just been looking at the weather info and the transcript. Not because I have a specific agenda, just trying not to stray too far from my area of expertise. My point of view is that of a ship captain, try to see things from the point of view of the crew.

34

[QUOTE=john;193462]In reference to Atlantic and Vigor I just want to know what they now. What emails, work records, etc do they have? Or is that an unreasanvle question??[/QUOTE]

Perhaps the information you are looking for is along the lines of what work did Atlantic perform in past shipyard repair periods and what work was expected to be performed at Vigor? Is the drydocking at Vigor a mid period or the 5 year? What sort pre-shipyard condition surveys were done, i.e., boiler, machinery, steel, and/or coating? What do those surveys say? All this information Tote has, or more specifically the P/E assigned to the El Faro. As well as past shipyard summary reports.

Lastly, there has been a lot of conjecture concerning the work being done by the Riding gang. Most of what was guessed, surmised, or rumored appears to have been way off base. According to the interview of the (Riding Gang) company VP they were doing preparation work for the installation of winches. No boiler work was mentioned in the interview.

35

And, while I’m at it…<br><br>I do realize the reason the Marine Electric sunk is completely different from why the El Faro sunk. It’s apple and oranges!<br> <br>but I continue to bring up the Marine Electric because, even though the causes are completely different, what is happening NOW is exactly the same . That is a dog and pony show that’s on track to make the problem worse - not better - because it refuses to aknowledge the single most important fact which is: EVERYONE. Knows why the El Faro sunk just as EVERYONE knew exactly why the Marine Electric sank… but the entire industy is too far into cover our asses mode to admit it… so we do what we’ve always done… investigate and blame all the people with licesnse who were aboard the ship.

36

For what it is worth J J Henry & Herbert Engineering are the companies (Naval Architects) who are most familiar with this class vessel and the modifications made to them over the years.

37

[QUOTE=Chief Seadog;193472]Perhaps the information you are looking for is along the lines of what work did Atlantic perform in past shipyard repair periods and what work was expected to be performed at Vigor? Is the drydocking at Vigor a mid period or the 5 year? What sort pre-shipyard condition surveys were done, i.e., boiler, machinery, steel, and/or coating? What do those surveys say? All this information Tote has, or more specifically the P/E assigned to the El Faro. As well as past shipyard summary reports.

Lastly, there has been a lot of conjecture concerning the work being done by the Riding gang. Most of what was guessed, surmised, or rumored appears to have been way off base. According to the interview of the (Riding Gang) company VP they were doing preparation work for the installation of winches. No boiler work was mentioned in the interview.[/QUOTE]

Yes Chief, that would be a good start!

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From reading the transcripts I’m thinking he figured the list was due to the windage on the ship and it being dark is my guess. Maybe the engineers felt it more being they may not have known the current topside situation with wx? My speculations anyways…

39

John, I take great umbrage to this statement. There are plenty of mariners who can both professionally analyze a maritime calamity and be able to write about it in language a journalist would use. We are not all Neanderthals with our knuckles dragging on the ground

JB, sure I’ll take more freinds like Jeff because, I firmly believe, if you’re not wiling to question yourself then you got no business questioning anyone else!

indeed…well said

Want know what I really think about the El Faro?? I really think that the entire trial and 99% of what’s published (including the atuff in this thread) is complete bullshit. We will NEVER KNOW why the captain made such a completely iratiobal descision. NEVER and all the trying to find out is a waste.

wrong, wrong and wrong again! there is a great deal to learn via the hows and whys in this loss. To sweep it all away in a blanket statement that it is wasteful commits us to see this happen again someday

And this isn’t the first time I’m saying this… the first el faro editorial I puvlished as editor made the point abundantly clear: We Won't Learn Anything: What Sank El Faro and What Didn't

if we do not question the final reports of the entrenched powers of bureaucracy and money such as Robert Frump who wrote “Until the Sea Shall Free Them” did, then “truth” will not see the light of day even if the corruption endemic to our industry still is not vanquished and sent into a lonely exile. We own this to the dead that their deaths shall not have been in vain! At least the truth needs to be revealed to us who care and are forced to live that life in the service of the owners!

So why am I doing the video? Simply because there is a lot going wrong out there and if we, as a nation and an industry continue to insist that we invest a whole lot of time and money into solving an impossible problem (i.e. Figuring out what in hell the Capt was thinking) then we might as well use that time an money to figure out what else is wrong and fix that.

agreed…if we cannot derive a conclusive answer to the why at least let us know how to be better able to save the lives of mariners in peril through better and safer ships

And if at stake were just the industry’s time and money I probably wouldn’t even care… but that’s not all that’s at stake guys!! If we don’t steer the investigation towards real problems then they are going to find bon existant problems and create laws that will keep us in the office filling out more Bullshit paperwork that doesn’t solve one danm thing but does prevent us from spending time one deck and on the brisge… the two placea that WILL prevent future incidents!

no question that yet another “convention” will do nothing but make life at sea even worse than it already is…I cannot say with greater conviction what a morass of worthless alphabet soup the IMO crams down our throats as the years pass.

Note: this post will self destruct in 10-9-8-7…

6-5-4-3-2-1…boom?

.

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You’re doing great Capt, don’t change a thing :slight_smile: