Costa Concordia Disaster - What happened?

Professional Mariner Forum
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Sorry, but I taught that the Professional Mariner Forum was the main area where all the general “merchant marine” subject was discussed against In Service, a forum designated for members of US Coast Guard, Navy, Fire Departments, Merchant Marine Reserve and Military Sealift Command. As well, I wrongfully taught that a universal Forum was anything but a “little round table chats”.

Thanks for the Costa Concordia just … being a merchant marine vessel and as far as I know, was not carrying any Weapons of Mass Destruction.

The Kid ! :smiley:

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Unless all data are available (course,speed,who on the wheel, how many officers on the room, who gave the orders and to whom etc.etc.) apart from any previous failure that could exist at that very moment, What [B][U]I could see from the video[/U][/B], and these two data are very important- wind and current- , is a rapid deviation to the left (port side) due one or the two of these phenomena. The course and the track start from being the same until a difference from 2º to 10º at the moment of impact that indicates a strong current or a mix of current and wind even when there was a hard starboard wheel if the simulation is correct. These two data, if they did the same pass other times without consequences, should be taken into account. Do not you think so?. Regards

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[QUOTE=Topsail;61694]On a plane, a CVR/FDR is pretty useful because after a crash, there is often no crew member or passenger to talk to !!! In the case of the Costa Concordia, the transportation safety board inspectors will have the choice over 1,000 crew members and 3,000 passengers to interrogate, along with the shore base AIS recording and probably, some other parameters store in a number of navigation equipment such as Radars, ECDIS and engine room data loggers … if not destroyed by the flooding sea water.

The safety board inspectors hold an extensive experience in investigating maritime casualties without VDR. They will found the truth if it is their determination.[/QUOTE]

Not really true.
The witnesses are known as unreliable.
First, when adrenaline jumps up, individual loose focus, with higher frequency of heart rate - you get tunel vision, etc… After some time you start to forget.
Second, witnesses are subject to all kinds of influence, not to say “bullying”, for example, they will be breifed by owners lawyer, statements verified by legal department before being released etc… In worst case they can always get: “You will say this, or we will not re-employ you”.
Third, out of over 4000 people on board, only a handfull have seen what was going on on te bridge.

Finally, my own experience, VDR records are most detailed and exaustive evidence to give facts.
VDR’s that I had on board take records in few seconds frame time of all electronic readings plus voice records.
To name some:
GPS positions in seconds frames,
Echosounder electronic readings,
Speed redings - all gauges,
Radar screen shots, cca three per minute,
voice records, VHF exchange,
telegraph oreders,
possibly - ECDIS screen shots.

This all in a real time records data form.

If it is true that VDR was inoperational, and the company knew about this, this will make the company look really bad.
Allegedly, they knew and approved about near coastal “show off” manouvers.
They had undeclared pax on board.

Unfortuantely, this is Italian flag, and I am afraid we will never see real safety report of this accident, when compared to UK or US flag (MAIB and NTSB safety reports)

From a wider perspective: I am afraid that this case will result in further production of additional clauses, rules, paperwork, procedures in various national (italian) and international legislation.

Also, I wouldnt be surprised for new requirement, for additional (back up) VDR, like we have with all other electronic equipment on the bridge.

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Maybe the VDR will become a “No Sail” item in the future.

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[QUOTE=AHTS Master;61741]Maybe the VDR will become a “No Sail” item in the future.[/QUOTE]

As far as I am concerned a non functioning VDR is already a “No Sail” items as it is a SOLAS mandated piece of critical equipment just like a fire detection system or GMDSS station. Only the Flag State can waive this requirement if the ship were to only stay in Italian waters. SInce ship was scheduled to call at France then Italy granting a waiver wouldn’t mean shit unless the port state bought off on it!

A master doesn’t get to say, “oh my radar doesn’t work or I don’t have enough lifeboats but I am going anyway” This non functioning VDR should be treated as being SUSPECT OF WRONGDOING just like refusing to take a breathalizer test. If it doesn’t work then you are guilty! PERIOD! I don’t give a flying eff for Shittino and his crimial slipshot way he commanded his ship! He has God himself to thank alone for there not being hundred or thousands of deaths that night of Friday the 13th! Only divine providence brought the CONDORDIA back to shore or she would have capsized in deepwater and imagine the fatalities if that had happened!

Show me Italy’s waiver!

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[QUOTE=c.captain;61743]As far as I am concerned a non functioning VDR is already a “No Sail” items as it is a SOLAS mandated piece of critical equipment just like a fire detection system or GMDSS station. Only the Flag State can waive this requirement if the ship were to only stay in Italian waters. SInce ship was scheduled to call at France then Italy granting a waiver wouldn’t mean shit unless the port state bought off on it!

A master doesn’t get to say, “oh my radar doesn’t work or I don’t have enough lifeboats but I am going anyway” This non functioning VDR should be treated as being SUSPECT OF WRONGDOING just like refusing to take a breathalizer test. If it doesn’t work then you are guilty! PERIOD! I don’t give a flying eff for Shittino and his crimial slipshot way he commanded his ship! He has God himself to thank alone for there not being hundred or thousands of deaths that night of Friday the 13th! Only divine providence brought the CONDORDIA back to shore or she would have capsized in deepwater and imagine the fatalities if that had happened!

Show me Italy’s waiver![/QUOTE]

Unfortunately, as far as you’re concerned doesn’t mean much. Here’s a question for you - you’re the Master, and your VDR isn’t functional. Cargo is done and it’s time to leave, tech didn’t show, VDR still doesn’t work. Do you leave or not?

It’s sad to say, but the VDR being non-function IS NOT a no-sail item, and I’d be surprised if it became one after this.

And you can sail on one radar - as long as you’ve got an X-band functional, you can sail. I believe (correct me if I’m wrong), that the X-band not working is a no-sail item.

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[QUOTE=New3M;61745]And you can sail on one radar - as long as you’ve got an X-band functional, you can sail. I believe (correct me if I’m wrong), that the X-band not working is a no-sail item.[/QUOTE]

And a ship has only one VDR! Allowing a ship to sail without having it working is up to

  1. the flag state

and/or

  1. the port state

It is not up to a master, owner, operator, charterer or any class society (unless authorized by the flag state). If it’s required by SOLAS it is required…PERIOD!

DIdn’t they teach you about the authority of flag and port states at the school you went to?

sheesh

.

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New 3M Unfortunately, as far as you’re concerned doesn’t mean much. Here’s a question for you - you’re the Master, and your VDR isn’t functional. Cargo is done and it’s time to leave, tech didn’t show, VDR still doesn’t work. Do you leave or not?

And THAT my friend is what separates the true sailors from the office suck ups! If I feel I shouldn’t go… I don’t. When pushed back by office (only once or twice in 27 years as Captain) I am rarely at a loss for words, or justification. But then again, maybe because they know me, they respect my decision. (grudgingly)

C.Captain It is not up to a master, owner, operator, charterer or any class society (unless authorized by the flag state). If it required by SOLAS it is required…PERIOD!

I am going to finish C Capt’s thought. You can sail with in EXCESS of required equipment, you can sail just WITH required equipment, You can do these at your discretion. But you cannot sail without mandatory equipment. THAT is not at your discretion. I believe this was what he was trying to get across. C Captain: Not trying to put words into your mouth, just continuing on. !! :slight_smile:

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[QUOTE=c.captain;61750]And a ship has only one VDR! Allowing a ship to sail without having it working is up to

  1. the flag state

and/or

  1. the port state

It is not up to a master, owner, operator, charterer or any class society (unless authorized by the flag state). If it’s required by SOLAS it is required…PERIOD!

DIdn’t they teach you about the authority of flag and port states at the school you went to?

sheesh

.[/QUOTE]

Yes they taught me that thank you. And I’ve even been on a ship that’s been 835’d.

Ok, so call the Coast Guard or ABS and tell them that your VDR isn’t working. What are they going to do? Issue you a wavier and tell you to get it fixed at your next port if you can’t get it fixed now. So what happens if you run aground or have a collision or sink on that trip? Where are the fingers going to be pointed? At you? Seems like you covered your ass by reporting it, and then the CG gave you the wavier, so is it their fault?

You still didn’t answer the question. Do you sail or not?

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[QUOTE=New3M;61758] Do you sail or not?[/QUOTE]

Yes I sail…for 32 years now in fact and today I am master of a newbuild drillship

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[QUOTE=New3M;61758]Seems like you covered your ass by reporting it, and then the CG gave you the wavier, so is it their fault?[/QUOTE]

So where is the waiver granted by the flag state authorizing the COSTA CONCORDIA to sail without a functioning VDR?

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[QUOTE=c.captain;61762]Yes I sail…for 32 years now in fact and today I am master of a newbuild drillship[/QUOTE]

Congratulations.

But the question I was referring to: You’re the Master, and your VDR isn’t functional. Cargo is done and it’s time to leave, tech didn’t show, VDR still doesn’t work. Do you leave or not?

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[QUOTE=c.captain;61763]So where is the waiver granted by the flag state authorizing the COSTA CONCORDIA to sail without a functioning VDR?[/QUOTE]

I agree with you that there probably wasn’t one, and I’m sure we’ll never find out. I have a feeling the Italian Coast Guard isn’t going to be real helpful with the info. We may just have to live off of the media reports.

It is a curious question though - IF there was a wavier by the flag state, and now the ship sits on the rocks, who’s to blame?

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[QUOTE=New3M;61764]Congratulations.

But the question I was referring to: You’re the Master, and your VDR isn’t functional. Cargo is done and it’s time to leave, tech didn’t show, VDR still doesn’t work. Do you leave or not?[/QUOTE]

No I don’t…I report it to the company as a major non conformity under ISM and they would go to the flag state to get their blessing. Also under my obligations I report it to the port state. Yes, in most cases my ship will get a waiver to proceed but I must have that in hand to legally sail. I do not have the legal right to make that decision on my own authority.

As an aside, I had am almost identical situatuion to this occur recently when one of the 4 lifeboats on my ship became badly damaged in an accident involving a malfuntioning davit. That still is not resolved but unless that is resolved my ship cannot begin drilling by the decision of the port state (USCG)…

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[QUOTE=c.captain;61766]I do not have the legal right to make that decision on my own authority.[/QUOTE]

Not that most in the office will realize that!

With that waiver though, will the media firestorm be any less when the ship sinks and the AP reports that the VDR was broken?

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[QUOTE=New3M;61764]Congratulations.

But the question I was referring to: You’re the Master, and your VDR isn’t functional. Cargo is done and it’s time to leave, tech didn’t show, VDR still doesn’t work. Do you leave or not?[/QUOTE]

That is the ONLY leverage I have over the office schmucks to actually get repairs accomplished, to have techs waiting my arrival at the dock, and I have never been known as one of those "we’ll get it at the next port guys, It’ll be OK 'till then."
I have a sneaking suspicion that by the time you change your moniker to ‘New2M’ or ‘NewCM’ you may see things differently.

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[QUOTE=cappy208;61768]That is the ONLY leverage I have over the office schmucks to actually get repairs accomplished, to have techs waiting my arrival at the dock, and I have never been known as one of those "we’ll get it at the next port guys, It’ll be OK 'till then."
I have a sneaking suspicion that by the time you change your moniker to ‘New2M’ or ‘NewCM’ you may see things differently.[/QUOTE]

You have my sincere respect, Captain, and I ain’t cheap.

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[QUOTE=cappy208;61768]That is the ONLY leverage I have over the office schmucks to actually get repairs accomplished, to have techs waiting my arrival at the dock, and I have never been known as one of those "we’ll get it at the next port guys, It’ll be OK 'till then."
I have a sneaking suspicion that by the time you change your moniker to ‘New2M’ or ‘NewCM’ you may see things differently.[/QUOTE]

Hey I didn’t say it was the right thing to do. I agree that shit should get fixed and I’ve seen Captain’s who hold that stuff over the office and it seems like sometimes that’s the only way to get it done. If that’s what has to be done, then so be it.

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[QUOTE=New3M;61765]It is a curious question though - IF there was a wavier by the flag state, and now the ship sits on the rocks, who’s to blame?[/QUOTE]I don’t see how a non fuctional VDR would have been a contributory factor to the hull being ripped open by the grounding yet if it was in the US, I can see the laywers just having a woodie over that one! No, the accident belongs to the master and if he had a waiver in hand for the non functioning VDR might just give him one milligram less feces on his face than he already deserves. If he doesn’t have a waiver then he should drown in his own filth!

Calling his handler at Costa right after the accident and saying “I screwed up”…what an imbecile! He should have been managing the emergency not making phone calls trying to explain that he made a booboo and was a bad captain! What a poltroon!

.

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[QUOTE=New3M;61771]Hey I didn’t say it was the right thing to do. I agree that shit should get fixed and I’ve seen Captain’s who hold that stuff over the office and it seems like sometimes that’s the only way to get it done. If that’s what has to be done, then so be it.[/QUOTE]

Good post, Maria, give New3M anything he wants, I’ll have a cold draft myself.
Cheers