Cosco Busan Allision

Professional Mariner Forum
61

[QUOTE=oliveoil;9894]San Francisco Bar Pilots | OpenSecrets

LOOK AT RECEIPIENTS. IN 2000, SHE GOT 500, IN 2002, 500. it’s Feinstein and Boxer who are in the THOUSANDS RECEIVED FROM SF BAR PILOTS. THINK THEY SEE THE LIGHT THOUGH…LOOK AT THE LEGISTLATION THEY PASSED…WORDED “TAKING INTO ACCOUNT” THE POLITICAL TIMEBOMB THEIR ADDRESSING.

ANY OTHER QUESTIONS ?[/QUOTE]
http://www.wduncanlaw.com/pdfs/JOC.pdf - 5 charged Cheating on San Fran PILOT BAR test

…PELOSI WAS FOND OF THEM BACK IN THE DAY…UNTIL SHE SAW THE LIGHT

62

there is no date on the article…when did that happen

63

[QUOTE=c.captain;9918]there is no date on the article…when did that happen[/QUOTE]
From the people in the article, Reps. and such - late 90’s. What a’ crock of shit huh ?

64

[quote=c.captain;9893]

YA GOTS TA BELIEVE ME…IT WASN"T ME…HONESTLY!

It was the captain, the ECDIS, the radar, the VHF, the GPS, the helmsman, the mate, the VTS, the current, my breakfast, the dog…

NO, NOT ME AT ALL! IT’S TRUE BECAUSE MY LAWYER SAYS SO!

A $500,000/year pill popping junkie and an embarrassment to professional mariners everywhere. How many more out there like him?

John, if you read this board, I hope your cell mate is a 350# biker who makes you his bitch the first night in the pokey…that will be a fitting punishment for you.[/quote]
REGARDING YOUR POST " [B]HOW MANY MORE OUT THERE LIKE HIM[/B] " …DON’T KNOW - BUT LOOKING OVER SOME RANDOMLY RELEASED STATE AUDITS - ONE IS COMPELLED TO ASK WTF!?

When accessing these AUDITS, click PFD option…top left…then “[U]Reports and Conclusions[/U]”

http://www.legaudit.state.ak.us/pages/audits/2002/20015rpt.htm
http://www.legaudit.state.ak.us/pages/audits/2006/20045rpt.htm

When you see Horse Shit like this statement of record in a released audit of drug testing compliance
… nobody within this industry is that naive to WTF is going on here …

[LEFT][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=4]"[I]In addition, one pilot that was selected took over two months to report for testing[/I]"…[/LEFT]
[/SIZE][/FONT]
One thing is a given… in light of the current awareness issue on this subject - part of the problem is when you note arrogant statements as below ([I][U]as sited in audit[/U][/I]) made by "[I]one of their own[/I] " … SPEAKS FOR ITSELF DOESN’T IT ?

…followed with more horse shit…one thats twisting peoples noodle in various circles right now…as per audit discovered:
" [I]In another situation, an individual was selected for testing, but the contractor administering the test noted that there was a “sample problem”, and the specimen was never delivered for testing. Coincidentally, according to the pilots licensing file, the individual involved had a history of past substance abuse problems [/I]".

…There was only one comment received regarding this question toward the end of the audit…speaks for itself

[I]" Drug problem – is this a big problem? Although checking for drug use may be worthwhile to some extent, perhaps in a license renewal physical, I don’t believe that conscientious marine pilots should be over-exposed to random drug checks unless there has been a history of abuse by an individual. Pilots are independent contractors working through an association for billing and dispatch as well as a unified entity dealing with state and federal agencies. They are not employees needing oversight by an employer. "[/I]

[COLOR=black]…That’s the problem is it not ? " [B]Conscientious Marine Pilots[/B] “?! …the entire industry see’s a new definition of the word “[I][U]conscientious [/U][/I]”. " [I]Not needing oversight”!?[/I] What other statement could be farther from the truth [I]?[/I][/COLOR]

[I]Read the audits - make your own determination. This happy horse shit amongst the so-called elite will end.[/I]

65

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width=“100%” border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style=“BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset”>Originally Posted by [B]c.captain[/B]
[I][/I]

[I]YA GOTS TA BELIEVE ME…IT WASN"T ME…HONESTLY! [/I]

[I]It was the captain, the ECDIS, the radar, the VHF, the GPS, the helmsman, the mate, the VTS, the current, my breakfast, the dog… [/I]

[I]NO, NOT ME AT ALL! IT’S TRUE BECAUSE MY LAWYER SAYS SO![/I]

[I]A $500,000/year pill popping junkie and an embarrassment to professional mariners everywhere. How many more out there like him?[/I]

[I]John, if you read this board, I hope your cell mate is a 350# biker who makes you his bitch the first night in the pokey…that will be a fitting punishment for you.[/I]

SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE: LOOK OVER NTSB WEBCAST 2/18/09… MEMMBER HERSMAN OF THE PANEL SPECIFICALLY ADDRESSES WHY/HOW THIS [U]IDIOT COULD OF BEEN “[B]CHAIRMAN OF THE SFPA DRUG ABATEMENT PROGRAM[/B][/U]” ALL THESE YEARS…AND NOTED HER COMMENT TO THE INDUSTRY STATING: [B]"IT’S LIKE THE FOX GUARDING THE HEN HOUSE " (END QUOTE).[/B]
[B]GOOD FOR HER - FOR SHE IS OBVIOUSLY NOT ON APA’S PAYROLL…[/B]

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
REGARDING YOUR POST " [B]HOW MANY MORE OUT THERE LIKE HIM[/B] " …DON’T KNOW - BUT LOOKING OVER SOME RANDOMLY RELEASED STATE AUDITS - ONE IS COMPELLED TO ASK WTF!?

When accessing these AUDITS, click PFD option…top left…then “[U]Reports and Conclusions[/U]”

http://www.legaudit.state.ak.us/pages/audits/2002/20015rpt.htm
http://www.legaudit.state.ak.us/pages/audits/2006/20045rpt.htm

When you see Horse Shit like this statement of record in a released audit of drug testing compliance
… nobody within this industry is that naive to WTF is going on here …

[LEFT][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=4]"[I]In addition, one pilot that was selected took over two months to report for testing[/I]"…[/SIZE][/FONT][/LEFT]

One thing is a given… in light of the current awareness issue on this subject - part of the problem is when you note arrogant statements as below ([I][U]as sited in audit[/U][/I]) made by "[I]one of their own[/I] " … SPEAKS FOR ITSELF DOESN’T IT ?

One thats twisting peoples noodle in various circles right now…as per audit discovered:
" [I]In another situation, an individual was selected for testing, but the contractor administering the test noted that there was a “sample problem”, and the specimen was never delivered for testing. Coincidentally, according to the pilots licensing file, the individual involved had a history of past substance abuse problems [/I]".

…“There was only one comment received regarding this question.”

[I]" Drug problem – is this a big problem? Although checking for drug use may be worthwhile to some extent, perhaps in a license renewal physical, I don’t believe that conscientious marine pilots should be over-exposed to random drug checks unless there has been a history of abuse by an individual. Pilots are independent contractors working through an association for billing and dispatch as well as a unified entity dealing with state and federal agencies. They are not employees needing oversight by an employer."[/I]
[I][/I]

  • Would like the above quoted idiot to define what his interpretation is of " big problem" vs. “small problem” with regard to drug abuse of any kind within this industry …is it like comparing a 13.5 million dollar cleanup ( small ?) to a 70 million dollar cleanup ( Big ?).

[COLOR=black]…That’s the problem is it not ? " [B]Conscientious Marine Pilots[/B] " ! …the entire industry see’s a new definition of the word “[I][U]conscientious [/U][/I]”. " [I]Not needing oversight" ?[/I] What other statement could be farther from the truth [I]?[/I][/COLOR]

[I]Read the audits - make your own determination. This happy horse shit amongst the so-called elite will end.[/I]

<!-- / message --><!-- edit note --><HR style=“COLOR: #d1d1e1; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #d1d1e1” SIZE=1>[I]Last edited by oliveoil; Today at 10:35 PM. Reason: AWARENESS ISSUE 101… [/I]
[RIGHT]<!-- / edit note --><!-- controls -->[/RIGHT]

66

After reading the preceeding posts thought that I would add my thoughts on the matter. Seems that nearly every near miss that I have experienced during my career was at least in part facilitated by a Harbor Pilot. Please read as a “sanitized” near mishap report. Several years ago a rather large vessel on which I was employed was sent to a very liberal west coast port to participate in an annual PR event. Due to the specialized mission of the vessel the operator believes that the watch officers should all be pilots (aircraft). They are selected and retrained as mariners, upward mobility in this community is dependant upon this selection. Anyway, the vessel had embarked a Pilot (harbor) and proceed to assigned anchorage. Along the route to anchorage was a bridge complicated by treacherous currents to be negotiated. The navigator provided recommendations the the conning officer and lined the ship up to pass between the bridge stantions. They failed to recognize the slow insideous creep to stbd as the vessel was set down upon the stantion. The bow of the vessel safely negotiated the bridge stantions while the stern was in extreme danger of alliding on the stbd quarter. Only the quick action of the Captain, a pilot (aircraft) who put the rudder hard stbd prevented a disaster. Throughout the entire episode the Pilot (harbor) remained stoic and provided no input or recommendations. Apparently a complaint was lodged with the USCG and local pilot assn regarding the performance of this pilot not aware of any action taken.

67

All-Thanks for the information.

See- www.usdoj.gov/usao/can/community/Notifications/index.html

Did not think Cota deserved jail time but found out which drugs he was taking. So were any of these drugs in his system while piloting? I now believe this was the case. To put it in terms we can all relate- The fate of my children, marriage, home, career and finances could have been resting in the hands of some fellow high on drugs! NO, no way and no how.

Cota had a drug test administered. Two samples were taken. These were tested for the NIDA-5. Could these samples be tested now for any of the drugs he was prescribed or alleged taking?

As for the random tests “took 2 months to take test”, I though it was pretty cut and dry, 3 hours or leave MMD at the door. Where is the oversight on the drug test administrator??

68

[quote=captmad;10003]all-thanks for the information.

See- www.usdoj.gov/usao/can/community/notifications/index.html

did not think cota deserved jail time but found out which drugs he was taking. So were any of these drugs in his system while piloting? I now believe this was the case. To put it in terms we can all relate- the fate of my children, marriage, home, career and finances could have been resting in the hands of some fellow high on drugs! No, no way and no how.

Cota had a drug test administered. Two samples were taken. These were tested for the nida-5. Could these samples be tested now for any of the drugs he was prescribed or alleged taking?

As for the random tests “took 2 months to take test”, i though it was pretty cut and dry, 3 hours or leave mmd at the door. Where is the oversight on the drug test administrator??[/quote]
… Here is one really strange: Ready ?
The same federal judge who is overseeing and ruling on the ‘baseball steroid use issue’ is who ?

…whats my line…" the same judge on cosco busan "

question of the year: What is the likelyhood/coincidense of that to happen ?

69

yes you may have your licensed suspended until you are off that medication. Or how is this??? Sprain your ankle to the point you cannot walk very well, you must give up your license because you are now physically unfit!!!

70

The port requires that you take the Pilot aboard but the captain is still in charge and totally responsible. Going in and out of a familiar port like SF Bay, all the Pilot is a familiar voice to the Tug Master. When he comes aboard ask him if there any unpublished hazards, etc you should know and then take [U]your ship[/U] out [U]your self[/U]. Where does it say that you have to use him? Ya just have to take him aboard, correct? If you let the Pilot take your ship out and he’s f-in things up the Capt. will take control anyway - so why not just do that from the get go?! I know what I’m writing is not a common idea for Unlimited Licensed blue water Deck Officers but I think it needs to be. An old favorite saying of mine: “When in Charge-TAKE CHARGE!!”

71

The port requires that you take the Pilot aboard but the captain is still in charge and totally responsible. Going in and out of a familiar port like SF Bay, all the Pilot is a familiar voice to the Tug Master. When he comes aboard ask him if there any unpublished hazards, etc you should know and then take your ship out your self. Where does it say that you have to use him? Ya just have to take him aboard, correct? If you let the Pilot take your ship out and he’s f-in things up the Capt. will take control anyway - so why not just do that from the get go?! I know what I’m writing is not a common idea for Unlimited Licensed blue water Deck Officers but I think it needs to be. An old favorite saying of mine: “When in Charge-TAKE CHARGE!!”

Sorry, but that only applies to a US flagged vessel in coastwise trade where the master holds unlmited first class pilotage for that port! A foreign master does not have a US license with pilotage endorsed on it then he cannot legally pilot the vessel himself therefore he MUST take a pilot and as a result, turn over command to him.

The old lame excuse that the master is alone in having responsibility is antiquated and that day is already over although the pilots don’t want to admit it or for them to allow anyone else to say it. Once it becomes the defacto law, then pilots become legally responsible which COSCO BUSAN has now proved!

72

[QUOTE=c.captain;10029]Sorry, but that only applies to a US flagged vessel in coastwise trade where the master holds unlmited first class pilotage for that port! A foreign master does not have a US license with pilotage endorsed on it then he cannot legally pilot the vessel himself therefore he MUST take a pilot and as a result, turn over command to him.

The old lame excuse that the master is alone in having responsibility is antiquated and that day is already over although the pilots don’t want to admit it or for them to allow anyone else to say it. Once it becomes the defacto law, then pilots become legally responsible which COSCO BUSAN has now proved![/QUOTE]
absolutly correct…

73

[QUOTE=Captmad;10003]All-Thanks for the information.

See- www.usdoj.gov/usao/can/community/Notifications/index.html

Did not think Cota deserved jail time but found out which drugs he was taking. So were any of these drugs in his system while piloting? I now believe this was the case. To put it in terms we can all relate- The fate of my children, marriage, home, career and finances could have been resting in the hands of some fellow high on drugs! NO, no way and no how.

Cota had a drug test administered. Two samples were taken. These were tested for the NIDA-5. Could these samples be tested now for any of the drugs he was prescribed or alleged taking?

As for the random tests “took 2 months to take test”, I though it was pretty cut and dry, 3 hours or leave MMD at the door. Where is the oversight on the drug test administrator??[/QUOTE]
2nd is kept only in event of questionable results of the “5”. When negative on first, 2nd is destroyed as per Fed. guidelines/rules.

74

No requirement that you watch him run your ship into a bridge and not step in…

75

[QUOTE=oliveoil;9947]Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width=“100%” border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style=“BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset”>Originally Posted by [B]c.captain[/B]
[I][/I]

[I]YA GOTS TA BELIEVE ME…IT WASN"T ME…HONESTLY! [/I]

[I]It was the captain, the ECDIS, the radar, the VHF, the GPS, the helmsman, the mate, the VTS, the current, my breakfast, the dog… [/I]

[I]NO, NOT ME AT ALL! IT’S TRUE BECAUSE MY LAWYER SAYS SO![/I]

[I]A $500,000/year pill popping junkie and an embarrassment to professional mariners everywhere. How many more out there like him?[/I]

[I]John, if you read this board, I hope your cell mate is a 350# biker who makes you his bitch the first night in the pokey…that will be a fitting punishment for you.[/I]

SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE: LOOK OVER NTSB WEBCAST 2/18/09… MEMMBER HERSMAN OF THE PANEL SPECIFICALLY ADDRESSES WHY/HOW THIS [U]IDIOT COULD OF BEEN “[B]CHAIRMAN OF THE SFPA DRUG ABATEMENT PROGRAM[/B][/U]” ALL THESE YEARS…AND NOTED HER COMMENT TO THE INDUSTRY STATING: [B]"IT’S LIKE THE FOX GUARDING THE HEN HOUSE " (END QUOTE).[/B]
[B]GOOD FOR HER - FOR SHE IS OBVIOUSLY NOT ON APA’S PAYROLL…[/B]

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
REGARDING YOUR POST " [B]HOW MANY MORE OUT THERE LIKE HIM[/B] " …DON’T KNOW - BUT LOOKING OVER SOME RANDOMLY RELEASED STATE AUDITS - ONE IS COMPELLED TO ASK WTF!?

When accessing these AUDITS, click PFD option…top left…then “[U]Reports and Conclusions[/U]”

http://www.legaudit.state.ak.us/pages/audits/2002/20015rpt.htm
http://www.legaudit.state.ak.us/pages/audits/2006/20045rpt.htm

When you see Horse Shit like this statement of record in a released audit of drug testing compliance
… nobody within this industry is that naive to WTF is going on here …

[LEFT][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=4]"[I]In addition, one pilot that was selected took over two months to report for testing[/I]"…[/SIZE][/FONT][/LEFT]

One thing is a given… in light of the current awareness issue on this subject - part of the problem is when you note arrogant statements as below ([I][U]as sited in audit[/U][/I]) made by "[I]one of their own[/I] " … SPEAKS FOR ITSELF DOESN’T IT ?

One thats twisting peoples noodle in various circles right now…as per audit discovered:
" [I]In another situation, an individual was selected for testing, but the contractor administering the test noted that there was a “sample problem”, and the specimen was never delivered for testing. Coincidentally, according to the pilots licensing file, the individual involved had a history of past substance abuse problems [/I]".

…“There was only one comment received regarding this question.”

[I]" Drug problem – is this a big problem? Although checking for drug use may be worthwhile to some extent, perhaps in a license renewal physical, I don’t believe that conscientious marine pilots should be over-exposed to random drug checks unless there has been a history of abuse by an individual. Pilots are independent contractors working through an association for billing and dispatch as well as a unified entity dealing with state and federal agencies. They are not employees needing oversight by an employer."[/I]
[I][/I]

  • Would like the above quoted idiot to define what his interpretation is of " big problem" vs. “small problem” with regard to drug abuse of any kind within this industry …is it like comparing a 13.5 million dollar cleanup ( small ?) to a 70 million dollar cleanup ( Big ?).

[COLOR=black]…That’s the problem is it not ? " [B]Conscientious Marine Pilots[/B] " ! …the entire industry see’s a new definition of the word “[I][U]conscientious [/U][/I]”. " [I]Not needing oversight" ?[/I] What other statement could be farther from the truth [I]?[/I][/COLOR]

[I]Read the audits - make your own determination. This happy horse shit amongst the so-called elite will end.[/I]

<!-- / message --><!-- edit note --><HR style=“COLOR: #d1d1e1; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #d1d1e1” SIZE=1>[I]Last edited by oliveoil; Today at 10:35 PM. Reason: AWARENESS ISSUE 101… [/I]
[RIGHT]<!-- / edit note --><!-- controls -->[/RIGHT][/QUOTE]
Investigator/panel member Honorable Hersman did indeed state her concerns about this in-house SFPA drug abatement program he was chairman of for years. For a pilot association to have this program in itself shows they may have a problem.What a Public Relations disaster this must be to this bar ? Do all pilot associations have this kind of deal or program ? And if they do - who elects their chairman ?

76

The Pilot has the Conn the ship Master has the Command.

Believe they allowed the “Cosco Busan” Master to leave the country. So how is the ship Master implicated? What charges are being brought against him if any??

Right now do not care about Cota’s sealed fate. More worried about what other BS is going to be rammed down my throat.

77

these are the words I wrote as comments in the SF Chronicle to an article they ran right after the allision that spoke that very issue:

I am sorry to be so harsh on Cota but I truly believe with all conviction that he alone caused this tragedy. When you are master in a foreign port and have a pilot conning his ship it into what looks not right it still would be extremely psychologically difficult to make the final move to seize control from him because god help you if you can’t then avoid the accident yourself.

&

let me say that I have sympathy for the master, Captain Mao Cai Sun. He is in a foreign port and if he felt any hesitancy about getting underway in that fog, he knew that many hundreds of ships get underway in such conditions each year without incident so he cant stand up to the owners or he will be fired and thus ends your career. You do not get a choice in which pilot you will get so you have to believe he knows what he is doing. If he looks incompetent, you do not legally get to say you’ll take it out because you do not have a right to be your own pilot. It is true, to be your own pilot you must have what is called a pilotage endorsement which you cannot get because you are not a US citizen. You may have the responsibility but in reality you have no authority unless the situation becomes one of inextremis and by then it is most likely way too late to avoid the end of your career unless you pray Hail Mary. No matter what happens in these situations youre screwed.

Better to let a COSCO BUSAN type incident happen even if you feel the pilot is taking you into a disaster because if you seize the conn from him and the accident still occurs then the pilots will point every finger they can at the hapless master claiming that nothing would have happened if the master hadn’t taken the rash and foolish action that he did and blah de blah de blah ad nauseum. Better to at least share the blame instead of just taking it all alone.

78

Damned if ya do half-damned if ya don’t, good point.

79

Cosco Busan shakes up the traditional relation master - pilot; read it here:http://www.maritime-executive.com/article/2009-03-12-cosco-busan-almost-rearview-mirror/

www.theartofdredging.com

80

Hi,

This is a wonderful opinion. The things mentioned are unanimous and needs to be appreciated by everyone.

robinson

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