[QUOTE=smoker;152653]Do you have any coherent points to be made to this debate, other than trying to shield your employer, Mr Lackey?
Atleast, DredgeBoyThrottleJocky backed up his talking point with a fact. YOU? And, you still have to answer c.captain.[/QUOTE]
A mother jones article isn’t a fact.
[QUOTE=pcdunham;152670]A mother jones article isn’t a fact.[/QUOTE]
fine…now answer my GODDAMNED question!
[QUOTE=pcdunham;152670]A mother jones article isn’t a fact.[/QUOTE]
But, for all you know, based on facts. For as far as I know, motherjones.com has not been refuted.
Where are YOUR facts to back up your rhetoric? Oh, and not from right wing sites either.
Still waiting.
[QUOTE=smoker;152672]But, for all you know, based on facts. For as far as I know, motherjones.com has not been refuted.
Where are YOUR facts to back up your rhetoric? Oh, and not from right wing sites either.
Still waiting.[/QUOTE]
No one has refuted anything I’ve said except tell me to defend it. Pose and argument and I will destroy it.
[QUOTE=smoker;152672]But, for all you know, based on facts. For as far as I know, motherjones.com has not been refuted.
Where are YOUR facts to back up your rhetoric? Oh, and not from right wing sites either.
Still waiting.[/QUOTE]
sorry smoker…he did answer it appears way back which I missed but of course he wants the ban repealed.
you know I am beginning to think this pcdunham clown is the embodiment of John McCain. Selling out America to reward his handlers…vis. just a stooge!
[QUOTE=pcdunham;152673]No one has refuted anything I’ve said except tell me to defend it. Pose and argument and I will destroy it.[/QUOTE]
destroy this Senator McCain…
I claim that the selling of a finite valuable resource without adding any value to it is nothing more than trading away wealth which only benefits the owners of the resource and not one single other person or group.
ok, refute that SIR!
[QUOTE=pcdunham;152365]A lot of this is wrong.
Some refineries are configured for light oil, i.e. east coast and midwest north east. Gulf Coast refineries are generally configured for Saudi and Venezuelan Heavy. Shale is the reason Nigerian light imports to US have fallen to nearly zero. Shale oil competes roughly with North and West African crudes. http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_a2_nus_ep00_im0_mbbl_m.htm
Countries don’t have higher standards than the US with the exception of maybe Europe. Either way, standards are mostly set on refined products rather than oil itself. There is plenty of demand for light oil like in Europe, etc.
Major oil companies do own tankers. I’m sure Exxon has some Jones Act tankers as does Kinder Morgan, other majors probably do too.
Refineries have seen expansions over past few years, some specifically to take advantage of lighter shale oil.
Point 4. Makes no sense. First, US taxpayers don’t subsidize US oil production. Second US oil trades at a discount to global prices because producers can’t export. The reason to export it to get a higher price that they can’t get domestically. Not exporting is hurting US producers by forcing them to sell at lower domestic prices.
The comparison to copper isn’t really valid. There’s no value add in blending crude grades the way someone manufactures a product from copper ore and has a profit margin. Heavy crude producers like Canada or Venezuela have to buy and blend condensate or super light oil as dilutent so their crudes can be processed at all by heavy crude configured refineries. They don’t gain any profit margin by doing this.
The US exports refined products and it is allowed on non-Jones Act tankers. The only reason oil exports are tied to the Jones Act is because Crude is moved from Gulf Coast to Eastern Seaboard and from Alaska to West Coast. US oil exports to Canada are allowed. Last year, a handful of foreign flagged tankers delivered crude from Canada to the Gulf Coast and from Gulf Coast to Canada because it’s cheaper to send crude between those 2 points than a US flagged Jones Act tanker from Gulf Coast to the Eastern Seaboard.
Merits of the Jones Act aside, I don’t think oil exports should be tied to it. The export ban was a result of the Arab oil embargo in the 1970’s long after the Jones Act existed.
I’m an oil and gas sector analyst. I cover and trade any publicly listed companies related to oil and gas, upstream, midstream and downstream. My brother is a mate on a subsea IMR vessel in GoM, in case anyone accuses me of having an interest in the Jones Act.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=c.captain;152675]sorry smoker…he did answer it appears way back which I missed but of course he wants the ban repealed.
you know I am beginning to think this pcdunham clown is the embodiment of John McCain. Selling out America to reward his handlers…vis. just a stooge!
destroy this Senator McCain…
I claim that the selling of a finite valuable resource without adding any value to it is nothing more than trading away wealth which only benefits the owners of the resource and not one single other person or group.
ok, refute that SIR![/QUOTE]
It’s funny how dumb you operational level people are.
[QUOTE=pcdunham;152677]It’s funny how dumb you operational level people are.[/QUOTE]
you are one insulting SON OF A BITCH…SIR!
please leave and begone from this place. We grow tired of your type…
if you are not a mariner then you do not belong here and you need to go!
.
Oil is evil. Destroy that, Kochsucker…
Fuck you! Oil puts food on a lot of our tables.
[QUOTE=JohnG;152628]The political and regulatory obstacles are absurd. You have no idea how powerful the “green” lobby is with certain pols. The oil company spends 10s of millions of dollars just to get the okay, or they waste 10s of millions of dollars when they get turned down.
Remember, a refinery is just a factory for oil, just like a shipyard is a factory for ships. Getting a factory approved, built and operating in the US has become a nightmare. Steve Jobs told this to Obama. He told Obama that it was absurdly expensive and time consuming to try to open a factory here. Consequently, some “joe lunchbuckets” lose their decent paying factory job and end up working at Walmart or MacDonalds. It’s just a great system we’ve managed to create.[/QUOTE]
Oh, BS. The Koreans and Japanese have no problem building factories in the USA and seem to live with the “nightmares” Steve Jobs complained about. The defense industry seems to build just fine.The Chinese and Europeans seem to be able to build factories in the USA also. So I call BS on Steve Jobs and anyone else that says the regulators are keeping them from building factories. Hell, every developed country in the world has regulators some of which make ours look like pussies. Talk about “green” go to that industrial power Germany which puts the USA to shame manufacturing… They build factories and deal with the evil “green” just fine.They also are heavily unionized, heck they even by law require workers be on the board of directors and take a role in running companies.
The greenies have batting 1000 when it come to preventing the construction of new refineries over the last 40 years.
[QUOTE=tugsailor;152695]The greenies have batting 1000 when it come to preventing the construction of new refineries over the last 40 years.[/QUOTE]
I thought they were building a new refinery in North Dakota? Perhaps I am wrong, would not be the first time. Blaming “greenies” on the lack of new refineries is disingenuous at best. Most 1st world countries insist on certain emission requirements. Want to create jobs? Use some of the billions of oil company profits to hire people to design, build and permit a new refinery instead of exporting those jobs to some third world country that doesn’t give a damn about what you spew in the air.
There was a time when people thought it would be impossible to put a man on the moon but the USA put the government and industry to work to do just that. Considering the challenge that was met to put a man in orbit and eventually on the moon building a refinery that won’t puke crap out should not be that hard.
[QUOTE=tengineer1;152698]I thought they were building a new refinery in North Dakota? Perhaps I am wrong, would not be the first time. Blaming “greenies” on the lack of new refineries is disingenuous at best. Most 1st world countries insist on certain emission requirements. Want to create jobs? Use some of the billions of oil company profits to hire people to design, build and permit a new refinery instead of exporting those jobs to some third world country that doesn’t give a damn about what you spew in the air.
There was a time when people thought it would be impossible to put a man on the moon but the USA put the government and industry to work to do just that. Considering the challenge that was met to put a man in orbit and eventually on the moon building a refinery that won’t puke crap out should not be that hard.[/QUOTE]
The refinery near me had been battling the “greenies” for 10 years for an expansion permit. There’s so many construction jobs here now, my son-in-law has run out of excuses not to work.
The current pipeline debacle demonstrates the power of the “greenies”.
[QUOTE=injunear;152700]The refinery near me had been battling the “greenies” for 10 years for an expansion permit. There’s so many construction jobs here now, my son-in-law has run out of excuses not to work.
The current pipeline debacle demonstrates the power of the “greenies”.[/QUOTE]
That pipeline is something that I personally do not understand what all the ruckus is about. According to my research the Canadians don’t want it going across their land [damn Indians, farmers etc caring about where they live again] and from what I understand as well as have seen with my own eyes this stuff they want to pump is a really corrosive slurry and is not oil as we know it but some nasty stuff that won’t even float on water. There will be very few jobs created once the thing is finished also. Additionally the tar sands are so expensive to produce it is not even profitable with the current oil price to dig up. So, why not wait awhile and give this a little more thought before letting Canadians with their USA oligarch partners transport crap thru USA land just to send to refineries in the USA that claim to be over capacity, can’t get permits to expand etc., and then export it to China? In the end who benefits and who stands to lose, what is really going on here? What were these people thinking when they started digging this stuff up? What was their business plan? My God, did they they invest billions of dollars to produce a product with no way to get it to market? If so why should the USA now let these morons send crap their own country doesn’t want thru the good old USA? Are they going to pay some per barrel royalty to the US taxpayer for this stuff? This thing just doesn’t meet the smell test for me at present.
[QUOTE=tengineer1;152703]That pipeline is something that I personally do not understand what all the ruckus is about. According to my research the Canadians don’t want it going across their land [damn Indians, farmers etc caring about where they live again] and from what I understand as well as have seen with my own eyes this stuff they want to pump is a really corrosive slurry and is not oil as we know it but some nasty stuff that won’t even float on water. There will be very few jobs created once the thing is finished also. Additionally the tar sands are so expensive to produce it is not even profitable with the current oil price to dig up. So, why not wait awhile and give this a little more thought before letting Canadians with their USA oligarch partners transport crap thru USA land just to send to refineries in the USA that claim to be over capacity, can’t get permits to expand etc., and then export it to China? In the end who benefits and who stands to lose, what is really going on here? What were these people thinking when they started digging this stuff up? What was their business plan? My God, did they they invest billions of dollars to produce a product with no way to get it to market? If so why should the USA now let these morons send crap their own country doesn’t want thru the good old USA? Are they going to pay some per barrel royalty to the US taxpayer for this stuff? This thing just doesn’t meet the smell test for me at present.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you, seems there is more going on than meets the eye and it is too easy to blame ‘greenies’ for everything as a smoke screen. Okay wikipedia is not definitive source but as a first stop http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystone_Pipeline this little map shows they already have a pipeline out of Hardisty to Port Arthur. So is it just a capacity thing, the existing pipe doesn’t move enough oil?
Then reading further you get this info
[I]“A Wall Street Journal article in March 2014 points out that the main reason oil producers from the North Dakota Bakken Shale region are using rail and trucks to transport oil is economics not pipeline capacity. The Bakken oil is of a higher quality than the Canadian Sand oil and can be sold to east coast refinery at a premium that they would not get sending it to Gulf refineries.[134] The article goes on to state that there is little support remaining among these producers for the Keystone XL.” [/I]
So which is it? Also see that Conoco Phillips was an original co-owner of the project but it appears they sold their interest to TransCanada. What a coincidence they then come out for exporting oil. It sure doesn’t seem about long term US jobs. Not to go all greenie but have you seen the pipeline spill that goes under the Yellowstone river? Looks like the river was frozen over so not easy to clean up and it supposedly made it down stream to a towns water supply plant so now they are on bottled water.
Would love to see a well researched and reported article/essay on this thing from other than either extreme.
[QUOTE=tengineer1;152698]I thought they were building a new refinery in North Dakota? Perhaps I am wrong, would not be the first time. Blaming “greenies” on the lack of new refineries is disingenuous at best. Most 1st world countries insist on certain emission requirements. Want to create jobs? Use some of the billions of oil company profits to hire people to design, build and permit a new refinery instead of exporting those jobs to some third world country that doesn’t give a damn about what you spew in the air.
There was a time when people thought it would be impossible to put a man on the moon but the USA put the government and industry to work to do just that. Considering the challenge that was met to put a man in orbit and eventually on the moon building a refinery that won’t puke crap out should not be that hard.[/QUOTE]
No where else on earth is it possible for the Greenies to tie up virtually any project for years, if not decades, with lawsuits and appeals.
We need to limit environmental lawsuits. And we need special environmental courts to fast track the lawsuits and appeals that are allowed.
Naw, you’re just fucking your Mother Earth, and your children’s Earth, and you’re own Future Earth. I, too, have had a lot of food/beer put on my table by oil, had a bit of an epiphany in '89, tug driving, put the Exxon Long Beach alongside the Exxon North Slope for lightering… The pilot was Shitty drunk. These were sister ships to the two largest oil spillers in history… (Exxon Valdez &Torrey canyon). So, coldduck, while you say “Fuck You” to me, you, sir, are a MOTHERFUCKER! And, I suppose, by extrapolation, a BabyFucker… Yeah, I’ll see you in Hell, but I have a shitload of solar panels for shade and air conditioning… So, Fuck You, Oil Whore!!!
can we get back to the topic of this thread now
Yeah, “Light Sweet Crude” is too hard for us to refine, we have to send it overseas… What a crock of shit. Jones act shit is like getaway driver haggling terms…
umm…maybe they should be asking the government to streamline the process for getting approved to build new refineries instead. I am understanding the whole picture a little better now. I was under the impression that all petroleum product exportation was not allowed. And no, I am not a dumb boat person. I know my trade and the details of if to a great extent. Much as an economist knows about the economy but would know nothing about overhauling an engine or how many amps through the heart it would take to incapacitate a person.
In short, no I do not think the ban on crude oil export should be lifted.
