ConocoPhillips Calls for End of Crude Oil Export Ban

[QUOTE=c.captain;152172]

all these studies purporting benefits to the country by lifting the ban are bought and paid for by the very companies wanting to get the ban lifted so of course they are going to support the exporters’ desires. I look at all those claims as being nothing but a steaming pile myself! Don’t step in it![/QUOTE]

That’s actually not exactly true. There are any number of academics that write papers supporting this, and have for many,many years. They do so because the numbers look good on paper. Unfortunately, these academics live in their own world and have little concept of the real world. It’s similar to many of the people you have working in government. They might have all sorts of letters after their name, but have never worked in the real world, the private sector. Both groups simply cannot grasp what that real world is like.

[QUOTE=JohnG;152171]From the Brookings article; “Supporting free trade. Lifting the ban on crude oil exports will increase the credibility of U.S. arguments for free trade in the global economy.”

The problem there is that all this free trade has ruined our manufacturing sector, putting untold numbers of people out of work…

…The business associated with supplies, tools, and associated materials to those factories is lost.
[/QUOTE]

There was a good speaker one time talking about the sorry state of our manufacturing industries. When WWII broke out, we were able to mobilize and rapidly build up our army, navy and army air corps. All done in a very short period of time. If another major war broke out now, could we do it again? Highly unlikely with our devastated manufacturing sector. We are painting ourselves into a corner.

When will our congress wake up? They are too busy lining their pockets.

[QUOTE=JohnG;152182]That’s actually not exactly true. There are any number of academics that write papers supporting this, and have for many,many years. They do so because the numbers look good on paper. Unfortunately, these academics live in their own world and have little concept of the real world. It’s similar to many of the people you have working in government. They might have all sorts of letters after their name, but have never worked in the real world, the private sector. Both groups simply cannot grasp what that real world is like.[/QUOTE]

so either way they remain little more than a steaming pile

[QUOTE=water;152184]There was a good speaker one time talking about the sorry state of our manufacturing industries. When WWII broke out, we were able to mobilize and rapidly build up our army, navy and army air corps. All done in a very short period of time. If another major war broke out now, could we do it again? Highly unlikely with our devastated manufacturing sector. We are painting ourselves into a corner.

When will our congress wake up? They are too busy lining their pockets.[/QUOTE]

I rally don’t think it’s about them :lining their pockets, although that is part of it. I think the biggest problem is that government relies on “experts”. Unfortunately these “experts” are people who only study study and have no actual experience running anything. As is often said: “They’ve never run even a candy store.”

You are correct about the major war thing. The US does not even have the capacity to produce clothing and footwear for a huge army, like in WW2. We do not have the machine tools to to make the machines used to make the clothing, in quantities necessary. People talk about our “high tech” advantage, but we rely on far east suppliers for most of teh components used in that high tech. Try to find a hard drive or memory, or even a monitor, made in the US. It’s avery dangerous state to be in.

[QUOTE=JohnG;152187]I rally don’t think it’s about them :lining their pockets, although that is part of it. I think the biggest problem is that government relies on “experts”. Unfortunately these “experts” are people who only study study and have no actual experience running anything. As is often said: “They’ve never run even a candy store.”

You are correct about the major war thing. The US does not even have the capacity to produce clothing and footwear for a huge army, like in WW2. We do not have the machine tools to to make the machines used to make the clothing, in quantities necessary. People talk about our “high tech” advantage, but we rely on far east suppliers for most of teh components used in that high tech. Try to find a hard drive or memory, or even a monitor, made in the US. It’s avery dangerous state to be in.[/QUOTE]

the Chinese have no plans at all to challenge us militarily…their plan is to sucker us into so much debt that one day they will just say, “WE OWN YOUR ASS SO NOW BEG” There would be only two things we could do. The first is to just obey and the other is to use out mighty military to barricade ourselves into fortress America but if we sell off our oil reserves, it won’t be long before we would begging afterall.

.

[QUOTE=lm1883;152192]This is the situation at hand.[/QUOTE]

it is indeed

Oil is Evil. Oil is Evil for environmental, political and socioeconomic reasons. Even considering the argument that “Light, sweet crude is too hard to refine, we have to sell it overseas but, hey, maybe us floating forklift drivers can make a buck out of it” does not bode well for the future habitability of our planet… Either you believe the oil companies, or you believe every major scientific study and every major college on the planet. Hmmm, how many trillions in stranded assets? Qui bono?

Like I say, If you don’t believe in man made global warming, Kiss a Muffler!

[QUOTE=JohnG;152187]You are correct about the major war thing. The US does not even have the capacity to produce clothing and footwear for a huge army, like in WW2. We do not have the machine tools to to make the machines used to make the clothing, in quantities necessary. [/QUOTE]

There will never be another “major war” and if it ever came down to that it would not last long enough for anyone to change clothes, much less make new ones.

We are going to succumb to a condition of chronic “war” against millions of terrorist fanatics who have been given wings by our own (to use an overly kind word) “misguided” foreign policy based on campaign funding by special interest groups. Between the religious fundamentalists in the US and those in the stone age societies that control most of the worlds energy reserves we will soon be in a constant state of advanced domestic terrorism, either foreign or homegrown. That is the rationale used by the generals who patiently wait for the opportunity to use their armies to enforce domestic “stability.” If you don’t think that can happen here, consider the dramatic increase in military worship in this country. It will take a lot of misery for the population to rise up against their “heroes” when they are deployed in Kansas to protect the good citizens from their neighbors who have nothing left to lose.

If that sounds a bit far fetched, look at yesterday’s report that more than half of US public school students are living below the poverty level. The gap between the rich and poor in this country is growing faster than even the most cynical and corrupt politician cares to think about. It is the seed that grows into the revolution that all governments fear most. There is nothing in the history of any society on Earth to indicate any other outcome from what we are seeing every day. It is the real reason why granny has to go through a body scanner at every podunk airport.

If the cost of an LCS or one of those useless F-35s were used for health care or education instead of buying palaces for defence contractors and seed money for campaign contributions there would be even less justification for building the damned things but until there is a complete separation of money from politicians and the military we will continue this spiral into darkness.

We are not going to succumb to a “major war.” We are dying a little bit each day from the cancer of political corruption and military ambition.

[QUOTE=Steamer;152202]There will never be another “major war” [/QUOTE]

Said Woodrow Wilson, and all sorts of others, after World War 1.

[QUOTE=JohnG;152217]Said Woodrow Wilson, and all sorts of others, after World War 1.[/QUOTE]

Because they, like our current crop of politico-militarists are spending our treasury under the guise of planning to fight the last war. They always have, they always will.

A major, declared war will not last long enough to wear out a uniform. If we went up against any power capable of waging a “major war” there will be no winners and no need for replacements parts. In reality we will be, are now being, defeated by ideology, not hardware.

An interesting read is “Pay Any Price” by James Risen.

[QUOTE=JohnG;152217]Said Woodrow Wilson, and all sorts of others, after World War 1.[/QUOTE]

this is not the world after WWI…this is an electronic world with doomsday weapons that could destroy the majority of humanity within hours.

enemies of democracy and freedom know they can never hope to challenge the monster military of the USA on a battlefield of war but can far more easily beat us on the economic battlefield. They discovered our weakness for spending money which we don’t have for that which we don’t need. Loan a little bit of money and you are a creditor who hopes to be paid back per agreement but loan a lot of money and you are a ruler who can seize assets and dictate the terms of bankruptcy.

Mark my words that that is exactly where we are headed…to bankruptcy where the Chinese, Saudis and all the others who hold the trillions in US Bonds are quietly setting us up to where they will end up owning us, all our resources, our markets, everything! The biggest and wealthiest nation ever on the planet will succumb to being parceled off piece by piece to the creditors after the default. Values on everything not taken will plummet because nobody will have a cent to buy a thing.

Unless the military seizes control and barricades the continent from encroachment onto our soil all our foreign creditors after we default but we will be alone then. The dollar will cease to be a currency traded in the world. The USA will become a pariah state nobody will listen to, speak with or trade with any further. We will be derided as being deadbeats! We will have to rely on what we have in out borders which includes what oil we can still find on the continent.

But hey, ConocoPhillips isn’t making enough profits this year…we can’t let that happen…now, shall we?

I personally think CNN needs to change their initials to CTN…Cable Terrorism News which is always “breaking” 24/7/365!

Your neverending source for all your up to the minute terror news all the time!

These are all good points. But to me, one lost job in the US is one job to many. Whether a truck driver or oil field worker or whatever, we need to protect what we have. And yes. This country was built with shipping no matter what anyone says. How many people not in the military pack their shit up for months on end and say good bye to their families and miss holidays and funerals? Merchant mariners. Bet your ass we should get paid. Finally! And what about all the maritime training facilities and maritime academies? This would have far reaching effects if the market was opened to foreign sailors. All of these post have great merit. But I stand behind my chosen. Added as a merchant mariner and the jones act. The corporates are always going to find a creative, government backed way to make money. Don’t do it this way though.

[QUOTE=PaddyWest2012;152173]Good thing we already have a baboon for a president. If the shoe fits…[/QUOTE]

That baboon is the oil man’s best friend. Despite his rhetoric, in practice he has presided over and encouraged a historic boom in oil in the USA. Just Google “Obama Oil”… Sadly his love for the oil and money boys is currently causing a temporary oil glut and many people in the oil business will lose jobs over it.Not that the average citizen will care, heck they are happy they can buy more food with the money they save from gas prices and I am happy for them.
Obama is the best friend Wall Street has had in many years. Bush put more of those big money corporate thieves in prison than Obama by long shot. Enron was a Bush supporter but when they went down the tubes due to mafia like accounting Bush’s Justice Department went after them, put a few in prison. When, Goldman, Citibank and Bank of America went down the tubes due to the same thing who did Obama go after? No one! If you think race equates watching after the 1% Obama is whiter than the a pearl.
Conoco Phillips and their friends just want to extract more wealth from the USA citizen and make prices rise for the US consumer… Screw 'em.

Back to back world war champs😀

[QUOTE=lm1883;152329]But one should remember Bush repealed Glass-Stegal act of 1933, [/QUOTE]

Bush must be some sort of time traveller. Repeal happened in November, 1999.

[QUOTE=smoker;152088]You are seriously not so inward thinking, are you?

There is more factors involved in selling crude oil, then only shipping. Crude oil from different regions are all different in terms of chemical characteristics, viscosity, etc. no crude oil from one geographical region is the same as another.

  1. A refinery has to be retooled to accept shale oil. A refinery is geared to accept and process crude oil from one region. It’s not a simple matter as turning off the switch and sending in hundreds of cheap Asian labor all armed with brooms and mops to clean their pipelines and storage tanks. There is a reason why all tank ships are cleaned after every load and why tank ship crews are the highest paid in the maritime world. Retooling is expensive business and why would a refinery do that, when you look at the map of the global oil trade and the easy availability of cheap oil being carried on cheap bottoms?

  2. Shipping is just another factor in the global oil trade. There was a time when we’d look out of our port holes/bridges/fan tails/whatever, see fleets of tankers carrying the colors of Shell/BP/Chevron/whoever, crisscrossing the world trade routes and crewed by Americans and Europeans and be envious, wishing we were on that ship. Today, in this age of globalization, those fleets have been out sourced to someone named Diana and crewed by cheaper Asians. BP must be the only legacy fleet owner left and the Saudis, Kuwaitis, Iranians and Omanis have their own, subsidized fleets creed with cheaper Asians. How is USA going to fight & survive that cost?

  3. The final product has to meet that importing country’s standards and grades. Given that US shale has never been exported and additives, etc will have to be added at the processing level to meet those standards, the cost of the final product goes up. Allow me to also remind you that the world is on an even more stricter standards than USA.

  4. Crude oil is always sold at a discount. Whether its a plus or a minus, all depends on the supply & demand circumstances. Today, it’s at a minus. Given the above costing & pricing realities, you do realize that any US oil producing co would have to offer a hefty discount to sell that tax payer subsidized oil and shipping is the only barrier left to overcome that stops from that tax payer subsidized crude oil being sold away at throw away prices? The US oil co can offer hefty discounts because WE subsidize it. But, they no longer controlling shipping. Hence, this attack on Jones Act.

  5. If you accept all of the above, then it goes by corollary that, with no refinery processing US crude oil, the US Gulf geographical location working against it, the US refinery capacity hamstrung by decades of not investing into it, then where is the demand and why are people like John McCain after Jones Act?

Let’s go back in history. The Britishers, Spaniards, Dutch, etc, all small countries with even more smaller populations and ALL controlling a major part of the world with bigger populations. How? All started with trading cos like The Dutch India Co., The British East India co, etc and supported by the network of Franciscans & Xaverites. All raped the colonized country of its raw material, shipped it back home, added value by processing that raw material and sold it back to the natives with an even bigger margin. In the current context, go to any scrap yard in USA and they’ll tell you that they’re contracted to either a mill or a trading house. All that waste material that we produce & throw away for free like paper, cartons, glass, plastic, metal, computers, etc is contracted and sold to a US based co like SIMS or some int’l co, who then sell it to recyclers abroad, re-processed and sold back to us. We end up paying through our nose several times over for the same product/packaging. Another e.g., John McCain gave over the copper rights on the ancestral Apache lands in Arizona to Resolution Copper, a subsidiary of Rio Tinto and BHP Billiton. All 2,400 acres of it. That copper will be sold to China, value added and sold to us at a higher price. What did we Americans get in return? See history being repeated? The corporates are already making the laws in USA, either ways.

Given the above reality plus the history of corporates, when it comes to their profits and undermining the security of a country, and the fact that there is no absolutely effin demand for US crude oil or a refiner to process it, what guarantees exist that the subsidized crude oil that is being exported, won’t be processed, shipped back and sold to us for a premium? The US oil cos are already bypassing the Jones Act by shipping crude oil to Bermuda, adding additives, claiming value addition, shipping it back to USA cheaper on FoC ships and selling it back to the US tax payer at a profit. Go to marinetraffic.com, start making a note of the same FoC tankers going up and down the East Coast and wonder why!

For US crude oil to be exported, the Jones Act in its present form will have to be amended to allow foreign made ships with a foreign crew and you can say good bye to your job. And, you can’t even cry, 'coz you enabled that outsourcing of the last remaining US based industry. That is the fucking reality and the oil co does not give a hoot about you waving the flag.[/QUOTE]

A lot of this is wrong.

Some refineries are configured for light oil, i.e. east coast and midwest north east. Gulf Coast refineries are generally configured for Saudi and Venezuelan Heavy. Shale is the reason Nigerian light imports to US have fallen to nearly zero. Shale oil competes roughly with North and West African crudes. http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_move_impcus_a2_nus_ep00_im0_mbbl_m.htm

Countries don’t have higher standards than the US with the exception of maybe Europe. Either way, standards are mostly set on refined products rather than oil itself. There is plenty of demand for light oil like in Europe, etc.

Major oil companies do own tankers. I’m sure Exxon has some Jones Act tankers as does Kinder Morgan, other majors probably do too.

Refineries have seen expansions over past few years, some specifically to take advantage of lighter shale oil.

Point 4. Makes no sense. First, US taxpayers don’t subsidize US oil production. Second US oil trades at a discount to global prices because producers can’t export. The reason to export it to get a higher price that they can’t get domestically. Not exporting is hurting US producers by forcing them to sell at lower domestic prices.

The comparison to copper isn’t really valid. There’s no value add in blending crude grades the way someone manufactures a product from copper ore and has a profit margin. Heavy crude producers like Canada or Venezuela have to buy and blend condensate or super light oil as dilutent so their crudes can be processed at all by heavy crude configured refineries. They don’t gain any profit margin by doing this.

The US exports refined products and it is allowed on non-Jones Act tankers. The only reason oil exports are tied to the Jones Act is because Crude is moved from Gulf Coast to Eastern Seaboard and from Alaska to West Coast. US oil exports to Canada are allowed. Last year, a handful of foreign flagged tankers delivered crude from Canada to the Gulf Coast and from Gulf Coast to Canada because it’s cheaper to send crude between those 2 points than a US flagged Jones Act tanker from Gulf Coast to the Eastern Seaboard.

Merits of the Jones Act aside, I don’t think oil exports should be tied to it. The export ban was a result of the Arab oil embargo in the 1970’s long after the Jones Act existed.

I’m an oil and gas sector analyst. I cover and trade any publicly listed companies related to oil and gas, upstream, midstream and downstream. My brother is a mate on a subsea IMR vessel in GoM, in case anyone accuses me of having an interest in the Jones Act.

[QUOTE=pcdunham;152365]I’m an oil and gas sector analyst. I cover and trade any publicly listed companies related to oil and gas, upstream, midstream and downstream.[/QUOTE]

so please just make it clear what your position actually is?

  1. the crude oil export ban needs to be maintained?
    or
  2. the crude oil export ban needs to be repealed?

[QUOTE=c.captain;152384]so please just make it clear what your position actually is?

  1. the crude oil export ban needs to be maintained?
    or
  2. the crude oil export ban needs to be repealed?[/QUOTE]

I added that to indicate I’m not some random dude making stuff up. It should be repealed.

#4. You’re an analyst unaware of Billions of dollars of us subsidies for US oil productions? Yeah, right… Sure you are… “Not exporting is hurting US producers by forcing them to sell at lower domestic prices.” From Mother Jones…(Not the Act) “Over the past century, the federal government has pumped more than $470 billion into the oil and gas industry in the form of generous, never-expiring tax breaks. Once intended to jump-start struggling domestic drillers, these incentives have become a tidy bonus for some of the world’s most profitable companies. Taxpayers currently subsidize the oil industry by as much as $4.8 billion a year, with about half of that going to the big five oil companies—ExxonMobil, Shell, Chevron, BP, and ConocoPhillips—which get an average tax break of $3.34 on every barrel of domestic crude they produce. With Washington looking under the couch cushions for sources of new revenue, oil prices topping $100 a barrel, and the world feeling the heat from its dependence on fossil fuels, there’s been a renewed push to close these decades-old loopholes. But history suggests that Big Oil won’t let go of its perks without a brawl.”