Collision between the container vessel ‘Astrosprinter’ and the traditional sailing ship ‘Nr. 5 ELBE’ - Interim Report

Maritime News Marine Incidents
41

I feel like this was covered already. Here is a transcript from another site:

Male voice : Wat is he up to (Was hat der denn da vor).

  • Most probably this person goes midships and presses the electrical whistle two times 5.
    Male voice: Why is he doing that (Was das nun soll?) - referring to the cargo vessel
    Male voice: Bear off ( Abfallen!)
    Other male voice: we are going to hit him (Den Treffen wir).
    Male voice: Hard to Port (Hart Backbord).
  • tiller is pushed to the port side, making the vessel turn starbord:
    Male voice: We are going to hit him right on (Den treffen wir volles Pfund)

Now if we were back in the time of the Titanic, “hard to port” might have meant put the tiller to port and turn hard to starboard. Or if the order was helms a lee, then again, put the tiller to port and turn hard to starboard.

But the order was “hard to port.” In this century, that doesn’t mean turn to starboard.

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42

I reckon it does with a tiller. It becomes very confusing if you give helm orders the other way, just as it was confusing for steersmen with wheels given orders as though they were a tiller. The tiller is a huge physical presence in your face, dominating the space it inhabits. The rudder is as you might say an appendage or abstraction. And the stern goes in the direction you “push” it, so the physical connection is very direct.

You notice that everyone who jumped on the tiller shoved it the same way, and without objection.

43

There wasn’t any slack until they started shoving on the tiller. That port-side tackle was the one with tension on it.

Which could conceivably have entered into the mind of the person giving orders, as it would have had to be cast off.

44

It doesn’t. STCW standard helm commands are standardized across all ships. I suppose it could become confusing, as you say. But that is why there should be no tolerance for varying the orders. I mean come on, now.

45

These two commands make sense. ‘Hart backboard’ means to put the tiller to starboard. At the same time you also have to slack away the sheets of especially the mainsail. To do that fast, as is required here, the sheets should have been manned and not fully tied up. I don’t think that was the case here. What a mess.

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46

With that size crew, someone should have been tending those lines. That was pandemonium. As far as helm commands go, in my world, on a sailing vessel, common terms used to order changes of direction are those related to relative wind rather than rudder orders because the sails are what powers the boat: Fall off or head up or come about, with helm and sail trimmers working together, not turn to port or starboard.

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47

Falling off is in my opinion the right thing to do. Coming about with at a certain point luffing sails, reduced speed and then building speed again takes much more time then falling off where you maintain wind pressure on the sails all the time while you aren’t not losing but rather gaining speed. For this you have to move the tiller away from the sail, they did the opposite thing…

48

It seems unlikely that the helm was put over contrary to intentions, it’s got to be obvious to everyone on deck what’s happening. Wasn’t that person who gave the command standing right there?

Otherwise I don’t seem much more progress here without the final report. The effect of the third vessel for one and the other did the collision in fact take place mid-channel?

A big issue here is the ambiguity on each vessel wrt to the intentions of the other vessel.

49

Did anyone read somewhere that the boat was under sails only?
Alternatively, was she under engine, with the sails up, only to impress the passengers?

This region is just flat, the wind should be continuous; but the river Elbe is tortuous, with the apparent wind on the boat changing. In addition, they came out of a U-turn.

In the video, it seems the boat turned always slightly starboard; referenced to the mast on shore, not to the moving ‘Astrosprinter’; the tiller being blocked in the center, or near to.

The mainsail being down and the wind coming from starboard, the big after sail must have pushed the stern to port, and thereby forced the heading to starboard.

However, in a few weeks, in the Final Report, we will see Astrosprinter’s VDR-data with her radar screens. I ignore the electronic means, the “passenger ship” ‘Elbe’ had to carry on, but at least her AIS- and VTS-data should exist.

There, we could, hopefully, also read about the qualifications of the crew; not about some nice papers earned, but about their experience on such very old ships. The old captain, a former ‘Elbe River Pilot’, had certainly guided similar boats, but he guided, and gave his orders to the boat’s captain.

As for the other 14 crew, the majority were certainly there to entertain the guests… and to push them out of (selfie) harm’s way. The actions of the remaining ‘real mariners’ did not impress in the video, they were rather lost…

50

It looked to me like the No 5 Elbel was in a gradual stbd turn.

51

Hello there, part time WAFI here.
I appreciate learning how the professionals do things, so mostly I lurk here.

But I have steered a large sailing vessel with that same kind of tiller and relieving tackle. It is normally a 2 person job. And steering orders are done the same way as with a wheel. ( At least on the Niagara ) Call for port rudder, move the tiller to starboard.

The only thing I can believe about this video, is that the person called for hard to port and the people at the tiller panicked (or were poorly trained) and moved the tiller the wrong way.

Toad

52

With only headsail and foresail showing, she may well have been unable to tack with the requisite expedience. Big schooners are notoriously dependent on sail handling to maneuver effectively, and I don’t understand why they would head into the wind with the center of pressure so far forward. Does anyone get an impression of how much weather helm they have on?

The decision to secure the main before the headsails may prove to be one of the early game mistakes that set them up for failure. I can easily imagine the guy going “how do I untangle this mess now?” for just that little bit too long before realizing that he needed to head into the wind under engine, with all the drama that it entails.

This echoes my somewhat controversial statement that tall ship safety in modern times is very difficult if not outright impossible, due to essentially zero depth of bench.

P.S: Schooners have lots of personality, much more so than sloops and ketches, and I don’t know the Elbe, so it’s entirely possible that she was perfectly balanced and my speculation is off the mark. If, however, sail handling played a role in this accident, it’s exactly the type of thing that wouldn’t happen amid a thriving community of working schooner captains.

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53

I don’t see a head sail or staysail, only a bare boom. If there’s a loose footed jib up ahead, it’s not visible.

I would say little to none based on the amount of force it took to move the tiller to the leeward side.
We can see that the main is furled, either partially or fully, but since we can only see the bottom of the boom so we can’t say with certainty which it is, at least I can’t. Can’t tell the condition of the mizzen since it’s behind the cameraman. There appears to be some leeway and possibly current pushing her to port.
Looking forward to the final report replacing half assed guesses.

Edit: corrected sail names; this is a ketch rigged schooner. Maybe better suited to pilot boat duties than a pure schooner.

54

Don’t know if this photo helps with regards to the condition of the sails or not.

image

Another photo from better times.

image
image1200×875 168 KB

55

I based my assessment on this picture:

As well as this one, which strongly suggests that the main was stowed:

750×421 186 KB

56

How conclusions based on fragmented information are dangerous. After looking at KC’s second photograph down, I concluded that the 5Elbe was a ketch rigged schooner. The bottom photo reveals that the aftermost mast is not a nearly as far aft as the telephoto shot in the second photo suggests. The perspective in the lower photo confirms that she is pure schooner rigged.

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57

I crew on a smaller (60ft) schooner and we often go out short handed in crowded waters; well designed schooners are relatively easy to handle even in a breeze.

Having watched the collision videos a few times I can only conclude that the Master was distracted and the crew inexperienced. Someone made a panicked call to steer the wrong direction, but by then it was too late.

After Nr. 5 Elbe finished its pilot work it was sold to an American that rechristened her “Wander Bird” and in 1936 sailed her around the Horn to San Francisco. There’s a film (and book) about the trip that shows a somewhat shorthanded crew. At the time she had a wheel, not a tiller.

(Two of the crew are the owner’s young son and daughter - the son “Commodore” is still with us; I saw him a few months ago. Quite an old salt.)

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