Oh, and I just realized how badly worded the sea time letter is. I just thought it was just poorly worded but it is worded horribly. It specifically says the vessel operates “12 hours underway” each day, which you do not get the 1.5 day credit for ever. I would think there is a good chance that if you get it rewritten it will be accepted.
WTF?!?!
My sea time letters say the exact same thing and I had no problems.
When you get off take everything you have and go talk to Capt Bruce at Fletcher. He can give you some advice and point you in the right direction.
I am going to get in touch with my coordinator tommorow and see if he will rewrite it stating “I am on watch for 12 hours a day with the vessel being operational 24 hours a day”. I hope this will make the freaking coast guard happy you would think they would call my company if they had questions regarding this since the phone number it clearly stated on there.
[QUOTE=Louis;56752]To count your days of seagoing service accurately,you must understand that a “day” is defined in the regulations as eight hours of watch-standing or day-working not to include overtime. For vessels under 100 GRT, however the OCMI may give a day’s credit for less than eight hours,but in no case will the acceptable period be less than four hours. Thirty days are considered to be one month,and 12 of those thirty day months add up to be one 360-day year on the coast guard’s calender. If you work on a vessel where a 12-hour day is authorized and practiced ( crewboats,supply boats, towboats, and some commercial fishing boats), you can claim one-and-a-half days for each 12 hour day worked. To claim this time,your documentation of service must specifically state that you worked 12 hours per day. remember sea service time means time on the vessel - not time of employment.[/QUOTE]
Check the definition of “day” in 46 CFR 10.107. In relevant part, it says “[o]n vessels of less than 100 gross register tons, a day is considered as eight hours…”
[QUOTE=jdcavo;56764]Check the definition of “day” in 46 CFR 10.107. In relevant part, it says “[o]n vessels of less than 100 gross register tons, a day is considered as eight hours…”[/QUOTE] Can you elaborate on the last part of the CFR “unless the Coast Guard determines that the vessel’s operating
schedule makes this criteria inappropriate” This is referring to the 2 man systems Crew boat are running under correct? that last part is extremely vague and leaves a lot to be interpreted.
This is the quote from NMC:
[QUOTE=jdcavo;56764]Check the definition of “day” in 46 CFR 10.107. In relevant part, it says “[o]n vessels of less than 100 gross register tons, a day is considered as eight hours…”[/QUOTE]
I am surprised at this interpretation! This is wrong.
Here is the ‘whole’ phrase:
The actual FULL quote is: “[U]On vessels of less than 100 gross register tons, a day is considered as eight hours unless the Coast Guard determines that the vessel’s operating schedule makes this criteria inappropriate,[/U]” In this case, how can the NMC determine that a vessel can not be operated over 12 hour days, when the COI requires that a vessel operating ‘over 12 hours a day’ will have two operators?
The ‘day’ is what is normally practiced and accepted. The vessels COI states what is required. How can NMC state that a mariner NOT get credible seatime for the exact same days they serve on a vessel that is ordinarily REQUIRED to stand a two watch system and it is accepted practice to do so?. I believe the phrase is: “On vessels where a 12-hour working day is authorized and practiced, each work day may be creditable as one and one-half days of service.”
Now to point out the differences in the English language, the original phrase: http://www.uscg.mil/nmc/download-docs/sea_service.pdf [B]“How do I count sea service?”[/B] “you may receive a day’s credit for less than eight hours.” This in NO way is limiting the ‘day’ to 8 hours. It simply is stating that on a less than 100 ton vessel you DON’T have to have a ‘full’ 8 hour day to count as a ‘day.’ What it does say, is that to get a ‘day’ it must consist of at least a 4 hour day!. Quite a difference, huh?
You must appeal, and point out the manning COI which says: “When operated over 12 hours a day, the watch must consist of two licenses.”
The office sea service letter is another point. It sounds like your office may not be up to speed on how to write a correct letter. find a template of what yours must say. make sure the office writes one this way. The clearer and more correct the letter is, the easier your time will be accepted.
Good point cappy. The quote from jdcavo does not cancel out the cfr giving you the 1.5 sea days, it is essentially giving small vessels an exemption from the 8 hour minimum to get a sea day due largely to small passenger vessels that only do 4-5 hours a day. That cfr citation does not overrule the cfr giving 1.5 days for a 12 hour day.
Thanks everyone I am going to keep fighting this one till either they give it to me or I acquire the time. They keep quoting just the first part of the CFR and refuse to acknowledge my schedule that I required to work by the coast guard due to my COI. I will keep the community informed on the judgement so we can know how to fight this if it comes up again because I believe this them trying to keep mariners from receiving the sea time that they work for.
Just so you know: There are instances where the RECs, or now, the NMC have been interpreting the CFRs wrong. The Navic, USCG information sheets, and the USCG website publish are NOT the law. The CFR is the law. It is up to YOU to argue for the correct interpretation for yourself.
google up these links. copy the pertinent paragraphs, and when you send this to NMC, (you can send attachments) you will be able to show them the actual CFR cites that support your position. Just put your file number on the email, with a short paragraph explaining why, what you are sending, and include your phone number so they can (if they want to call) Then call a couple days later, and try to get through to an evaluator.
You will have to prove your points to them point by point, without loosing your temper or raising your voice. Once you send the the links supporting your point of view, you will then have to talk to someone there. THAT will be difficult. The employees who answer the phone are civilian contractors whose job is to ‘yes’ you to death, so you don’t have ‘justification’ to actually talk to an evaluator.
It appears to me that the NMC philosophy is to deny the mariner the opportunity to actually discuss this with the coastguard evaluator who is making decisions which affect the mariners career. It takes a really concerted effort to get through, but you really have to talk to an actual evaluator.
Yep I am currently taking a prep class because I was under the assumption that I would be continued to give my 1.5 days from the coast guard. I have the school looking into and should know tomorrow if this doesnt get straightened out I will keep protesting till I get my 1.5 days. I will keep everyone in formed of how its going.
This question of receiving 1.5 days for 12 hour days on vessels under 100 tons is something I have been seeing more of in the last few months. Its freaking me out a little since I plan to use my 12 hour time on under 100 ton boats to upgrade.
Its my guess that it represents some kind of interpretation shift on the part of the USCG. Mr. Cavo quoted the line from the MSM directly following the sentences that about when a mariner should receive 1.5 time. That line being “On vessels of less than 100 gross tons, a day is considered as eight hours…” As noted in the comments above, there is no indication that Mr. Cavo’s quote has any bearing to the question. It his quote however and indication of what the CG is thinking? I wonder what interpretation the USCG is laboring under? I wonder why they appear to have made an effort to limit acceptance of time and a half applications?
Wouldn’t it make sense for them to share their interpretations with us in a clear way? That way I wouldn’t have to be on the internet, reading in a forum, slogging through interpretation, confusion, misinformation. All to find out if I will be able to use my time to upgrade in one year of working, or two.
Of course, I love gcaptain. And I love reading the forums. But it is ridiculous that this is literally the only free resource for finding out what is going to happen the next time i sent in a seatime letter to the CG.
Anyhow. Looking forward to seeing the conclusion to all this. Thanks for posting orangejulius.
As far as evaluators not being able to give one and a half days credit, it is absolutely true. I was told in so many words by my evaluator the same thing. Anyone wanting to get time and one half will have to go through the appeals process. I am currently almost at month six and I still have not received my reconsideration letter recon. My vessel COI also specifically states that only two of my position are needed to man the vessel, 98% of of the time, there is one condition in which 3 watches need to be in place. I also work 12 hour days. I don’t really care to get into the specifics of everything, but the COI takes into consideration all laws and cfrs, even those which may seem to contradict each other at first glance, when assigning manning requirements. The COI should be the silver bullet as far as the NMC is concerned, however, it is not.
The sad problem isn’t even that the NMC has no clue about the law or CFRs (which is true for the most part), its that someone higher up has a big problem with time and one half sea time, and is trying to snuff it out completely.
Call your congressman, don’t let it get to the point that I have when its 6 months later and you still have barely gotten anywhere. I guarantee you they will try to delay until you actually have your 8 hour sea time.
Also, as far as someone saying that the CFRs are the law, that is not true. The law is the law, the CFRs are regulations, which are mostly aimed at enforcing the actual law, but in cases when they are contradictory, the law takes precedent.
[QUOTE=deven;57070]As far as evaluators not being able to give one and a half days credit, it is absolutely true. I was told in so many words by my evaluator the same thing. Anyone wanting to get time and one half will have to go through the appeals process. I am currently almost at month six and I still have not received my reconsideration letter recon. My vessel COI also specifically states that only two of my position are needed to man the vessel, 98% of of the time, there is one condition in which 3 watches need to be in place. I also work 12 hour days. I don’t really care to get into the specifics of everything, but the COI takes into consideration all laws and cfrs, even those which may seem to contradict each other at first glance, when assigning manning requirements. The COI should be the silver bullet as far as the NMC is concerned, however, it is not.
The sad problem isn’t even that the NMC has no clue about the law or CFRs (which is true for the most part), its that someone higher up has a big problem with time and one half sea time, and is trying to snuff it out completely.
Call your congressman, don’t let it get to the point that I have when its 6 months later and you still have barely gotten anywhere. I guarantee you they will try to delay until you actually have your 8 hour sea time.
Also, as far as someone saying that the CFRs are the law, that is not true. The law is the law, the CFRs are regulations, which are mostly aimed at enforcing the actual law, but in cases when they are contradictory, the law takes precedent.[/QUOTE]
Can you give more information on your case such as is your vessel under a 100 tons? what exactly does the COI state pertaining to manning? What exactly did you evaluator say? Have you checked to see where you are in the appeal proccess?