Agreed. KP is a pain in the ass. It certainly has its faults, but to automatically discount it certainly isn’t fair. To be honest, I bitched about it more when I was in than after I got out. Granted the entire industry has changed since the late 70s/early 80s, but there is still a need. I can say that in four short years, I went from not having a clue about being a marine engineer to being very comfortable as a 3AE on my first vessel after school, and at a very reasonable cost, other than the mental anguish. . . but even that was survivable and makes for great stories. . . .
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Just watched last week 210 grads at KP ring the bell after completing their licence exams. Other than the smiles of getting through 4 tough years, majority (Even the ladies) ripped their shirts open to display the
“BEAT COAST GUARD” T shirts. Times are tough, many will commision into some type of service, many more will sail on whatever licence they pursued. Shit, they got one guy going into the space force thing. Reminds me of the Kelly twins, one did KP, one did Suny. Both are respected astronauts.
The comment about WW2 was had some sarcasm there.
Actually look at the retention rates for unlimited license students…not good. Although all Maritime Academies are still pumping out more thirds than industry can handle. For example when the deck class of 2020 goes from over 50 students freshman year to about 12 kids senior year. Then only 8 pass their test the first time around. Maybe you have more info than me about the current state at the Academies.
However I think in our industry, experience is more valuable than anything else. Real experience, not Training Ship Experience were you say only get two days of leading a whole engine/ deck watch.
I went to a Maritime Academy, but I could not justify going there today.
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Just focus on ROI - Maine, Mass and SUNY are the highest.
I agree there is a huge problem with that, lately it has been due to the large class sizes and limited time with rotating cadets through the watches. Cadet Division Officers would make those watchbills and sometimes neglected to properly execute a workable rotation. There was a time when every 1/c cadet would have 5-6 watches where they were in charge, sometimes now they’ll get only one. Placing underclass in the mess hall (which SUNY is phasing out) to scrub pans and work the serving line was another waste of valuable time.
Saturday Shipwork used to be a great way to get them involved in leading maintenance projects and learning new jobs and use of tools, but there doesn’t seem to be as much structure in those workdays anymore.
Still, I’d rather get the license and degree together and suffer the minor BS than hawsepipe, and that’s coming from someone who started off unlicensed.
Hawsepiping Is much,much harder now than even 20 years ago. And incredibly costly.
Maine also does the same thing with their students while on the Training Cruise. I can remember my freshman cruise when I scrubbed dishes for total of 12 whole days.I hated it especially because I worked in industry then decided to go to a Maritime School, mainly because I thought I’d get better training and knock out a degree.
Going off on a tangent but the new school ships are a horrible idea, 300 million for no training. And why not buy a Hornbeck flotel for 150mil then engineers can get their high voltage and Deckies DP time. What they should do is more co-ops like the limited kids. Make money and gain experience. Many people shoot down the idea bc “industry can’t handle that many cadets.” Well I am pretty sure you can get your time on a vessel 200ton and above.
New schedule
Freshman year - training cruise
Sophomore year - Cadet Ship with MSC
Junior year- Cadet ship in industry
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Heard MITAGs has an apprentice ship programs that are relatively cheap and AMO has an apprentice program of engineers. These may be cost effective alternative to hawsepipping and Maritime Academies.
ROI is a good indicator and should be considered but have to look at continuing trends. Look at Money Magazine overall rankings and try to find the old rankings and see the direction the school is headed. You’ll see Maine’s landslide drop and Mass actually increased. But then again there is many other factors. Yes ROI, but also so many other considerations
Hands down, a paid tuition, room and board (With license and degree) has the best “ROI”. (KP) AMO has an awesome program for apprentice engineers and very selective. Not sure how many get accepted, but that number is quite low. No degree, but an opportunity for decent licensed employment. You will have to commit to AMO for a length of time after training. Know very little about MITAG. Again, do not recommend hawsepiping in this day and age if you have better alternatives and want to move up in the system. I was one myself, wasn’t easy then, and much harder now. Job picture was much better then, not now.
That is where I feel cadet shipping was a better education for me than any schoolship. It is a shame that there are not the opportunities and diversity that I had when I did it. . .
The cadet shipping guy at SUNY a few years back had a lofty goal of wanting to put out enough 2nd class cadets on commercial ships that it would almost eliminate their presence on the training ship (they are useless anyways.) If only we had enough ships and berths to accommodate such a program.
And that is the real shame. The options I had as a cadet for shipping were amazing. Now? They would be hard pressed without the MSC option. . . .
Class sizes are a big issue and I think that’s a big reason the Regiment still exists. It aids in cutting down class sizes by creating useless busywork. There is a downside in that it also promotes mediocrity, it didn’t take long to watch students burn out and adopt a “good enough” attitude. Especially the students in hard majors they either switch to easier ones or drop the license track altogether.
Well, we didn’t have those options. It was either license track or leave. There were (and are even more now) options for different engineering specialties, and humanities tracks. . . but that was it. No way to drop hard classes to substitute for easy ones. . .
For the ABET certified majors Marine Systems, Energy Systems, Mechanical, and Electrical it’s a lot of work. The class size for my major is almost half of what it was just after the first year. Options are a good thing for the school, some people realize they have no desire to actually be on a boat or sail during their careers. That said if I wasn’t here for the license I would without question pursue an engineering degree else where and that has nothing to do with the professors who I feel are incredibly knowledgeable.
I think the Regiment can exist and play a good role, however, the way it currently operates I find simply useless. Just my opinion but I’m sure someone will sing its praises.
The only benefit that I can find for the Regiment is probably not the intended. I certainly hated it the entire time I was there. Sea Year was a great relief. What I did find, however, after I started sailing (and hell, even since I have come ashore), is that my tolerance for absolute useless BS is pretty high. . . .
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Hahaha my tolerance for useless BS is low, uncle sam scraped away a good chuck of it (most of these kids think they are much smarter than their young enlisted counterparts and they would be in for quite a surprise). If I am performing an exercise, running an evolution etc it needs to be for function, improvement etc and not just a means to kill time.
You were already taking the easy ones. On the other side of the Sound, at about the same time my class started with something like 50 Meteorology majors. By graduation, we were down to less than 20. Most of the others were still around, but had switched to Marine Transportation majors as it was “easier” (easy being relative, i.e. doesn’t have 7 semesters of calculus…)
[Addendum] Never mind.I forgot you are an engineer. But as for your “Nautical Science” major classmates, yes.
It made sense to me later on;
1.) Uniforms and demerits - The staff were enforcing rules and regulations no differently than any other body, so keeping within compliance/standards and taking care of your gear/uniform/spaces was just like maintaining the equipment you were responsible for aboard ship. Fail the audit? You get dinged. Same with inspections and grooming standards.
2.) Dealing with people/situations - Things can change with little or no notice at sea. Having to learn how to follow and lead over the course of the years spent there and deal with the different personalities you answered to and were put in charge of and all the associated headaches in between made the headaches that came afterwards familiar to me. “Oh boy… another one of those types again… here we go.” It doesn’t mean you’ll like it, but you know what switches to flip on or off to get yourself prepared for them.
3.) Pride and identity - I felt a part of the college’s history. A boy climbing the rigging of the St. Mary’s in 1890 was forever linked to me and vice versa, and the same went for everyone following after me. I felt sewn into the fabric of the institution and we all felt closer to each other as cadets due to shared stress and experience. Having graduated from a normal college prior to entering SUNY, I can say that seldom do you see such bonds or connections elsewhere, if at all. We were striving for a very specific professional license and title from day one at Maritime and could taste graduation day as it came and could not wait to cut our teeth in the business.
Remembering getting screamed at in the quad on day one, the stress of the next few years and then tossing my cover in the air that last day was a thrill that non-regimental institutions can’t come close to. I felt like a survivor.
And that is why I look back on it now with fondness. (But I’d never do it again…)
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