ATB Quandry? Or More justification for oversight and Government jobs?

[QUOTE=Tugs;99174] That’s the biggest difference Tugs Captains and Mates for the most part do all of the work themselves. Most of the rigs that I was CE on required a Pilot. My Skipper had most of the Pilotage for the areas that we ran and did it himself. But even if we had a Outside Pilot the Captain still did the docking and sailing.
[/QUOTE]

There is no doubt that many tug guys have very good skills and make good docking pilots. I also had river pilots that came up on tugs that were exceptional.

That’s just one piece of the puzzle however. Shiphandling is a skill that comes with more status attached then other important skills that might be less obvious. You can’t “show-boat” while doing voyage planning or studying the weather but sometimes these can be critical to name a couple

The Aiviq for example, the crew could have been the most bad-ass boat handlers around and wowed the hell out of observers but they may have needed to have a better understanding of winter weather in the Gulf of Alaska to get the tow to it’s destination in one piece.

Maybe spend some time on the Mighty Mississippi observing those small limited licensed “unreal” Mariners handle 1500 feet (do I need to convert to meters to grasp) barge make ups in heavily trafficked, ever changing depths, countless bends, rapid tidal flows and narrow channels not to mention the many bridges all done by one operator and still have time to man the radio in a VTS and click the link on their computer to get the marine forecast. You think those “unreal” Mariners don’t have to pay attention to the weather or moon cycles in determing the speed of the current? They manage all this and more without assist tugs, or pilots. The only aid they have is flanking rudders! Hats off to those guys, they earn every penny they make and their on the bottom of the payscale!

I guess the summary is that ATB mariners in the wheelhouse are not second class for the majority. In the NE they most definitely are not. If they were such a lowly crowd it would not be that hard to get a steering job on a quality unit at a quality company. When you do your own piloting, meneuvering, weather, voyage planning and paperwork you’re a professional. You normally aren’t there as a fluke.

I’d personally see a job as an officer on an ATB amongst those I have in mind as an upgrade in challenge and responsibility from my current position.

[QUOTE=z-drive;99234]I guess the summary is that ATB mariners in the wheelhouse are not second class for the majority. In the NE they most definitely are not. If they were such a lowly crowd it would not be that hard to get a steering job on a quality unit at a quality company. When you do your own piloting, meneuvering, weather, voyage planning and paperwork you’re a professional. You normally aren’t there as a fluke.

I’d personally see a job as an officer on an ATB amongst those I have in mind as an upgrade in challenge and responsibility from my current position.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think that anyone here has made the claim that ATB crews lack skills. The issue is the they are practically speaking small ships but are regulated as a tug, most notably regarding manning requirements.

If the manning requirements are adequate then the C.G. should lower the manning on coastwise vessels to allow them to compete.

[QUOTE=ForkandBlade;99225]Maybe spend some time on the Mighty Mississippi observing those small limited licensed “unreal” Mariners handle 1500 feet (do I need to convert to meters to grasp) barge make ups in heavily trafficked, ever changing depths, countless bends, rapid tidal flows and narrow channels not to mention the many bridges all done by one operator and still have time to man the radio in a VTS and click the link on their computer to get the marine forecast. You think those “unreal” Mariners don’t have to pay attention to the weather or moon cycles in determing the speed of the current? They manage all this and more without assist tugs, or pilots. The only aid they have is flanking rudders! Hats off to those guys, they earn every penny they make and their on the bottom of the payscale![/QUOTE]

Who, anywhere, ever has made the claim that running boats on any river does not require skill or called them unreal? Isn’t it obvious to the extreme that handling large vessels in restricted areas with bends and current requires a great deal of boat handling skills?
What is your point?

All good reasons why limited license mariners should get more respect and a better upgrade path to unlimited licenses.

Not all ATB operations are the same. Some of the smaller ATBs operate just like the the wire boats with the tankermen running the loads and discharges. The larger vessel operators like Crowley and OSG run them just like ships. The mates and AB/tankermen handle the cargo. Burning HFO requires a larger engine room staff. Regardless, when the tug comes out of the notch, weather to string out or shift to the dock, the person on the controls better have boat handling skills. My last 7 years I spent on ATBs, the deckhand skills were visibly on the wane.

[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;99203]What’s being said is; no matter hard you work, no matter how skilled you become , or how dedicated or motivated you might be; if you spend your career aboard an ATB, regardless of how long you work as AB or what license you hold or what you accomplish, you will never be a “real” mariner.

This strikes me as a flaw in the whole ATB concept, if the tug comes out of the notch you need experience on another type of vessel . In what other sector of the merchant marine can you spend your career but never getting credit for having mastered it.[/QUOTE]

KC, you hit on a good point. My question is this, If you hold a Unlimited Masters License do you feel that you are qualified to me Master on a Large AT/B?

As far as I am concerned the License does not make the Man. the Man makes the License.

And yes I believe that anyone that is a Master on a AT/B should be able to also Tow if needed!

Would you feel qualified to be master on a Large At/B just because on the license that you hold?

These questions will never be answered here on this forum and I can only hope for the next generation that is just now starting out that some one that has the power to effect changes does the correct thing.

[QUOTE=Tugs;99271]KC, you hit on a good point. My question is this, If you hold a Unlimited Masters License do you feel that you are qualified to me Master on a Large AT/B?
[/QUOTE]

No, I am not qualified to sail master of an ATB of any size. I would also not be able to sail C/M. I sailed mate on a tug/ tank barge many years ago and I might be able to learn but it would be tough.

[QUOTE=tugsailor;99262]All good reasons why limited license mariners should get more respect and a better upgrade path to unlimited licenses.[/QUOTE]

I couldn’t agree more and that topic alone needs its own thread. The way I see it, it is still possible to climb over the 1600-ton hump, but you’re quite right in that it has become more difficult. As I understand it that increase in difficulty is a recent change by the USCG, so it is very unlikely that things will improve in that respect any time soon.

I have heard of companies pencil whipping crews TOARs for working on ATB’s. would be a scary thing for a ship captain running a ATB to loose his pins and have to tow his barge on a rope with no real tug expirence.

You’re right this does need a new thread. It’s good to get a conversation going on the subject by the people who are the most knowledgeable about it, live it and are the most effected by it. The future of our industry depends on how things go in the next few years. The subchapter M regs will change the landscape and the path to the wheelhouse.

[QUOTE=Tugboater203;99305]You’re right this does need a new thread. It’s good to get a conversation going on the subject by the people who are the most knowledgeable about it, live it and are the most effected by it. The future of our industry depends on how things go in the next few years. The subchapter M regs will change the landscape and the path to the wheelhouse.[/QUOTE]

I’m trying to wrap my head around this as well. I don’t have a firm grasp of what the underlying philosophy is behind licensing. I was hoping that the thread Mariner’s licensing factors. would shed some light on the subject but another thread might help as well.

[QUOTE=“Kennebec Captain;99239”]

If the manning requirements are adequate then the C.G. should lower the manning on coastwise vessels to allow them to compete.[/QUOTE]
That is a good point. So, how does that suit you, to have your Green third mate come on to your ship? Can he/she operate their watch Unassisted during harbor entry, docking, undocking and then transitting Hell Gate? There is a different set of operations, expectations and performance going on here. All while doing 6 and 6, so ANY interruption of the Captain will jeopardize his mandatory off watch rest.

I just started a new thread about the path between limited and unlimited licenses for anyone who was interested in that topic when it was brought up earlier.

  • PaddyWest

[QUOTE=cappy208;99337]That is a good point. So, how does that suit you, to have your Green third mate come on to your ship? Can he/she operate their watch Unassisted during harbor entry, docking, undocking and then transitting Hell Gate? There is a different set of operations, expectations and performance going on here. All while doing 6 and 6, so ANY interruption of the Captain will jeopardize his mandatory off watch rest.[/QUOTE]

I work on Great Lakes ATBs, have been doing so since 2008. Prior to that I was on ships. The ATBs here generally run with 2 mates and a Captain. This is done in two possible formats. 1. the Mates are 6 and 6 all the time, the Capt does not stand a watch. 2. Capt stands a watch, 4 on 8 off on the open lake. Mates work 6 and 6 at the dock for cargo ops. When the situation calls for it the Mates will split the Capt’s watch while under way so he can be rested for going through the river systems. Either of these methods prevents the Mate from being alone in the pilothouse in confined waters.

[QUOTE=cappy208;99337]That is a good point. So, how does that suit you, to have your Green third mate come on to your ship? Can he/she operate their watch Unassisted during harbor entry, docking, undocking and then transitting Hell Gate? There is a different set of operations, expectations and performance going on here. All while doing 6 and 6, so ANY interruption of the Captain will jeopardize his mandatory off watch rest.[/QUOTE]

On ro/ro in places the ports are 6, or 18 hrs apart sometimes 2 or 3 days apart and port times are from 6 to 48 hrs with continuous cargo ops. The most Ive done is 4 ports in 24 hours. Ro/ro is faster then container and requires more crew involvement. (moving ramps, WT doors, moving lashings etc) we’ve got 12 cargo decks.

When we are coastwise and hitting it hard and heavy the second and third mates go on 6 and 6. The duty mate and Chief mate does cargo in port and the duty mate and I move the ship between ports. The mate rests between ports and I rest in port between agent, port officials and psc inspections etc. Our coaswise runs last about 8 or 10 days… One voyage may have two or three coastwise runs. We recover on the longer legs and catch up and do maintenance and ordering etc on the 10-14 day ocean passages.

Sounds like a good system, in that situation I’d imagine it works very well. In the NE coastwise oil trade in which I deal a fair amount, I really don’t see the Master not standing a watch. They almost exclusively work 6-6 standing a watch from my observation. Of course there are exceptions but up here with docks between 18 and 30 hours apart if the second mates were equally qualified to stand a watch as well as the chief mate (of course one will always be better/more skilled) the captain could float with them on 6/6 and create more or less an unofficial 4/8, or work 4/8 between the 3 and be available. The chief mate could also be available to be a second man on watch half of the time, splitting it with the Capt. Often the capt doesn’t get up for every sailing or docking, at least he isn’t in the wheelhouse supervising. On occasion yes but for the most part from what i see, no. This is not to say it doesn’t happen, but when you hear the same voices (that you personally know) on the radio at the same time on the same units day in and day out either they work 6-6 or don’t dare let the second mate run the boat.

Like I said, maybe it is more common than I think, but I really don’t see units running with 3 real wheelhouse guys very often.

Robert P. Hill of Ocean Tug and Barge Engineering, the grand-daddy of the modern articulated tug and barge unit, wrote an intelligent and detailed response to the February 2013 Workboat Magazine article bashing ATB’s, since this thread is about that article I just thought I’d throw his response out here for consideration. Go get 'em Mr. Hill!

By Robert P. HillFriday, April 05, 2013

I read with great dismay, the article that appeared in your magazine’s February 2013 issue, entitled “THE ARTICULATED TUG BARGE (ATB) QUANDRY”. I’ll open with the definition of quandary:

noun, plural quandaries : a state of perplexity or uncertainty, especially as to what to do; dilemma.

There is no dilemma involving AT/B’s present in the coastwise or ocean transportation marketplace. AT/B’s are indeed increasingly supplanting ships in the Jones Act coastal trade. It is a trend that is slowly beginning to spread to coastwise transport in other regions of the world as well. But the reality is, that it is also a force in deep water/ocean transport as well. So I want to examine the assertions made by the article’s author and essentially show the inaccuracies present in them, and provide the actual facts that trump the opinions expressed by the author. My goal is to deal with the technical inaccuracies of the article. I will leave it to others to deal with the manning contentions – though I will cover them with regard to places where they are not correctly stated as they apply to AT/B’s themselves.

The very first paragraph of the article is grossly inaccurate. There is no “safety gap” between AT/B’s and ships. Every time AT/B’s insert themselves deeper into the maritime trades, shipowners will lament the “lack of regulation” the AT/B is alleged to have. Well, I design them for a living. It is all I do. I’ve done it for over 30 years. Anyone who believes that AT/B’s somehow get a pass regarding regulations, has no idea what they are talking about. We are presently engaged in designing AT/B’s for a whole range of product transportation, including LNG. So, please allow me to directly quote a section from a Specification we are preparing for an AT/B liquefied gas carrier, indicating the regulations and standards that are being applied to the design of this AT/B. Note that we apply a similar range of project-specific Regulatory scope in ALL the AT/B’s we design.

2.0.3 Applicable Regulatory Standards for Vessel Design
The AT/B will be designed to the following domestic and international regulations and standards for safety, portions of which are found to be specifically applicable to gas carriers, or to Articulated Tug/Barge Units, Barges carrying hazardous cargoes or Towing Vessels. Further Rules & Standards may be found to be applicable and will be applied as required:

IMO (IGC) Code for Carrying Liquefied Gases in Bulk
46 CFR 38 Liquefied Flammable Gases
46 CFR 54 Pressure Vessels
46 CFR 151 Barges Carrying Bulk Liquid Hazardous Material Cargoes
46 CFR 153 Ships Carrying Bulk Liquid, Liquefied Gas, or Compressed
46 CFR 154 Safety Standards for Self-Propelled Vessels Carrying Bulk Liquefied Gases
46 CFR 162 Engineering Equipment
46 CFR 172 Special Rules Pertaining to Bulk Cargoes
ABS Guide for Building and Classing Liquefied Gas Carriers With Independent Tanks
ABS Rules for Building and Classing Steel Barges
ABS Rules for Building and Classing Steel Vessels Under 90M in Length
USCG Navigation and Vessel Inspection Circular 10-82, 10-92, 2-81
USCG Marine Safety Center Bulletin #01-98
OCIMF Standard for Loading Arms
API2000 Venting Atmospheric and Low Pressure Storage Tanks
33 CFR 159 Marine Sanitation Devices
USCG NVIC 2-81 – Tug/Barge Units – Dual-Mode AT/B
USCG NAVIC 12-82 - Time Weighted Noise Exposure … Compliance w/IMO Noise Criteria.
ABS “Guidance Notes on the Application of Ergonomics to Marine Systems”
IMO Int’l Convention on Load Lines 1966 with declaration Resolution A 231 (VII) and A 320 (IX)
IMO International Convention on Tonnage Measurements 1969
IMO International Telecommunication and Radio Regulator of 1973/1976 and 1982 including GMDSS - Rules 1999 For Radio Communication
IEEE-45 Recommended Practice for Electrical Installations on Shipboard
IES Recommended Practice for Marine Lighting,
IEC, Electrical Installations In Ships
ILO, convention no. 92 and no.133 for crew accommodation.
US Environmental Protection Agency (40 CFR 140)
Federal Water Pollution Control Act (33 USCG 1251 et seq.)
ASTM Publication F1166 – Standard Practices for Human Engineering Design for Marine Systems, Equipment and Facilities - latest edition, as well as other ASTM Standards specifically called out in these Specifications
ANSI Standards, as specifically called out in the vessel Specifications
SAE Standards, as specifically called out in the vessel Specifications
Oil Spill Prevention Act of 1990
UL Standards, including, but not limited to UL 1581, Reference Standard for Electrical Wires,
Cables and Flexible Cords
IMO International Convention for the Prevention of Pollution from Ships, MARPOL
1974/1978 Annexes I, IV, V resolution MEPC 14 (20) 07.09.84, resolution A 393 (x) and Annex VI
with all current amendments and/or modifications
ISPS requirements
SOLAS Certification (Tug – there are no living quarters on the barge)
SNAME guidelines for conduct of tests and trials
Other Flag State requirements. (Assumed to be Jones Act, USCG/American Flag)

The above list of regulations that our units meet, is not a “wish list.” It is the reality of what we do. To be certain, there are some regulations that do not apply to Unmanned Barges. Why? Because they are as noted; “unmanned.” As a designer however, I have yet to have a client who did not ask me point blank if something that is not required by regulation, is truly needed for safety – and not a one who refused to install something I felt was necessary for the safety of the crew.

It is news to me, and to my clients that charterers allow extra days when chartering an AT/B due to weather being a concern. An AT/B can operate in the very same weather as a ship can, and truth be known, ships sometimes slow more than AT/B’s in bad weather due to propeller and rudder emersion.

I do not know of a single AT/B utilizing a high capacity connection system that came out of the notch because a pin broke – the connections are designed along with their surrounding structure, for as much as 3X the expected loads. Name me all of the AT/B accidents using a major connection system since they came into widespread use in the 90’s where there was a casualty? An oil spill?

The author’s description of the motions of an AT/B is also incorrect. The contention regarding emergency hawsers parting due to no catenary is also incorrect. The AT/B’s I design have at least 1000’ of emergency hawser aboard. It is pure scare-tactics to contend that if an AT/B barge got away we’d have a repeat of the North Cape disaster. Rubbish. The North Cape was a single hull barge – all AT/B petroleum and chemical barges are double hull and the North Cape got away from a towing tug, in horrible weather they should not have been out in – not an AT/B. Whatever would befall an AT/B barge aground would also happen to a ship aground. And look at the largest spills since the 90’s. How many were from AT/B’s – how many from tankers? MANY more tanker accidents with significant spills. It is more likely that a ship will lose steering (see recent experience) or propulsion (see recent problems with fuel switchover in ships) than a tug losing a properly sized towing hawser while holding station offshore. So by the author’s reasoning, we should see tankers as the real “quandary”. He cites ship accidents as the reason why one has to further regulate or by implication, bad – the demonstrably safer AT/B.
AT/B motions? “Poor Souls” and pendulum movement? Has the author ever even ridden an AT/B? I have. There are YouTube videos that can be watched. The motion is not horrible even in extreme seas – and we design these boats for a significant height sea spectrum exceeding 7M.

It also not universally true that AT/B’s have a crew of only 7. Several of the ones we have designed have 10 to 14 aboard. All of our AT/B tugs are capable of berthing a minimum of 10. There is also a major problem with this statement written by the author: “Industry consensus says these ‘ships’ (when connected) are constructed to take advantage of a loophole in the law. Since these boats do not travel more than 200 miles from the U.S. coast and are not engaged in international voyages, they are not subject to the International “Standards of Training, Certification and Watchkeeping” (STCW) nor will they be subject to the upcoming “Maritime Labor Convention 2006” (MLC 2006) guidelines coming into effect 20 August 2013.”

Talk to an AT/B operator instead of relying on hearsay. AT/B’s ROUTINELY operate in trans-oceanic service. I know because my boats do it. The limitations of space for this article do not allow me to enumerate the many cases of such, but they operate under the same international rules as ships do.

Space limitations again prohibit me from answering each inaccuracy in the article, but interested parties are welcome to contact me at rhill@oceantugbarge.com to hear the REAL AT/B story. I would not send a person to sea on an unsafe vessel design. The safety of these crews is everything to a naval architect. We have to think of them constantly. To suggest by inference that those of us who design or operate these vessels care nothing for the concepts of safety or environmental protection is to do an injustice to a lot of good people. The TRUE AT/B record speaks well for itself.
Sincerely,

Robert P. Hill, N.A.
President, Ocean Tug & Barge
Engineering Corporation
rhill@oceantugbarge.com

Since when does a vessel have to go outside 200 NM to be bound by STCW?