Good point!
Originally Posted by cappy208
Sort of the same dilemma as ATBs.
The company wants guys with towing experience. But I can envision in a few years there will be a lot of ‘rusty’ tugboaters who haven’t put a barge on the wire. And quite a few masters and mates who either haven’t done it or only got a TOAR write off. Much less the deckhand/Tankerman who have never seen it done.
I cannot agree more. Hawser towing is a particular form of shiphandling that is both skill and art. Many never ever reach true ability at it and hence the West Coast towing companies, where hawser towing still flurishes, are very particular about who they select to put on the bridge. You have got to know your stuff and be able to work under immense pressure and stress. I have done it and DO NOT consider myself one of the artists who are the true masters in towing. I have the greatest admiration for the truly “old school” towing masters on the West Coast who worked the old “MikiMiki” class tugs. Most were single screw direct reversible and limited HP yet those men could take those boats and their tows into places that us more “modern” mariners cannot conceive of doing today. I am the son of one of those captains and say that with immense pride even though I will never have his chops when it comes to taking big heavy barges into places like Coos Bay or Eureka “on the wire”. It was not seafaring for the timid and meek. The DP button pushing kids today have no clue whatsoever.
m/v DOMINION…one of only a handful of the surviving Miki class tugs from WWII
If you read authors like Alan Villiers in his writings about the days of sailing the windjammers you come to realize that in our chosen profession, the men who came before us could and would do more than we ever can imagine today and they are to be revered and held in the highest esteem for their abilities and skills.
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[QUOTE=cappy208;64161] But I can envision in a few years there will be a lot of ‘rusty’ tugboaters who haven’t put a barge on the wire. And quite a few masters and mates who either haven’t done it or only got a TOAR write off. Much less the deckhand/Tankerman who have never seen it done.[/QUOTE]
This has already come to be. There are “company specific” ATB TOARs.
The thought of even towing a canoe into Eureka scares the shit out of me.
Working on a vessel with a DP 1 system that could not hold position taught me a great deal about boat handling and DP capabilities. Learning to understand my vessels characteristics and what angles worked best while on station. I had to take command and hold position half the time I was loading/offloading. It was extremely helpful working on a vessel that could not hold station. I learned the limits of my DP system, the limits of my own abilities, and what factors are most important in putting a vessel on station in DP mode.
Manual is always the default setting. You best know that well, and not that difficult. Ship handling is only called an 'Art" by those that had difficulty with it or tried to analyze how good there are. Difficult for some and second nature to others.
[QUOTE=anchorman;64187]Ship handling is only called an 'Art" by those that had difficulty with it or tried to analyze how good there are. Difficult for some and second nature to others.[/QUOTE]
I have a slightly different viewpoint. Whether one is skilled is subject to outside interpretation. It is the perception of the skill that separates the two. About 50% feel that they are the cats ass, but in reality they are just average. Some feel they are the top 25% and they actually suck. And about 25% are actually out-performers (of course they know it, we all want to think we are aces!.) The trick is knowing that these different interpretations exist in the first place. Knowing where you are on this scale compared to others is relatively useless. But there is another whole dimension out there. Some never even realize it, or understand the significance of such differences.
Some get by (as I like to think about it) as “Crash and Bash for Cash” And that is all they know. “Since I make a paycheck, I must be good!” Therefore I am.[ATTACH]1810[/ATTACH]
I can see it. Can You? Better yet, does it matter?
[QUOTE=cappy208;64191]I have a slightly different viewpoint. Whether one is skilled is subject to outside interpretation. It is the perception of the skill that separates the two. About 50% feel that they are the cats ass, but in reality they are just average. Some feel they are the top 25% and they actually suck. And about 25% are actually out-performers (of course they know it, we all want to think we are aces!.) The trick is knowing that these different interpretations exist in the first place. Knowing where you are on this scale compared to others is relatively useless. But there is another whole dimension out there. Some never even realize it, or understand the significance of such differences.
Some get by (as I like to think about it) as “Crash and Bash for Cash” And that is all they know. “Since I make a paycheck, I must be good!” Therefore I am.[ATTACH]1810[/ATTACH]
I can see it. Can You? Better yet, does it matter?[/QUOTE]
The only formula is getting the job done efficiently and not getting anyone hurt in the process - the pecker measuring can be left for those that think such percentages are important. I never put much credence in your perceptions of people and how they perceive themselves. What is important is knowing yourself, the vessel, and the elements you must navigate to be successful. You don’t have to be a genius, or the cat’s ass to accomplish any of it and it has nothing to do with some sort of scale. I obviously do not see what you do, but it certainly is less complicated from my viewpoint.
I guess this is the difference in management styles. I am pretty sure I an NOT the only one on the vessel that makes decisions that directly affect my life while I am both awake and in the bunk. I take everyone’s abilities into account.
E.G. when I get a deckhand who is shitty talking me into docks, I NEVER turn bow to the dock. I know, no matter what he thinks if himself, I can’t trust his judgement. However now I have two deckhands, no matter which watch they are on who make my job easier. It’s not a pecker check that is being measured, but job performance (or lack thereof) and how others affect me.
Holds true in a meeting or crossing situation. Who is on the other end of the radio? What exactly is he going to do (versus what he SAYS he’s going to do.)
One of my contemporaries is always one missed shift from an accident. Listening to him dock, assist tug orders, landing evolution makes me wonder how many of his lives he has used up. However he makes the same money I do, and his crew makes up for it by having one of the best records in the company as far as having no personal injuries or oil spills in years. But I HATE to be navigating in the same harbor when he is around.
I am not the only one ON the water, nor do I trust anyone else, until I see evidence to make me trust them. Whether it is aboard my vessel, or in the range lights of theirs. I am not a good poker player. I don’t read ‘faces’ well. Past experience is the tell.
When I started on tugs with my grandfather, he told me that the day I stopped learning something that should be the day I retire. As Captain I feel I learn as I try to impart knowledge to my crew. I also learn from my crew as they suggest different things to use or try.
When I’m on my way home after my tour, the important things to me are that there were no injuries, spills or damage. And that my crew and myself look forward to working together on the next tour.
Sent from my PiratePhone using gCaptain
“When I’m on my way home after my tour, the important things to me are that there were no injuries, spills or damage. And that my crew and myself look forward to working together on the next tour.”
For a professional that is all that matters. Companies come and go. Your personal integrity, the mutual respect between you and your shipmates is what matters.
Lose either your integrity or the mutual respect of your shipmates and you will never be able to buy that back for any sum of money.
tenginner
[QUOTE=cappy208;64207]I guess this is the difference in management styles. I am pretty sure I an NOT the only one on the vessel that makes decisions that directly affect my life while I am both awake and in the bunk. I take everyone’s abilities into account.
E.G. when I get a deckhand who is shitty talking me into docks, I NEVER turn bow to the dock. I know, no matter what he thinks if himself, I can’t trust his judgement. However now I have two deckhands, no matter which watch they are on who make my job easier. It’s not a pecker check that is being measured, but job performance (or lack thereof) and how others affect me.
Holds true in a meeting or crossing situation. Who is on the other end of the radio? What exactly is he going to do (versus what he SAYS he’s going to do.)
One of my contemporaries is always one missed shift from an accident. Listening to him dock, assist tug orders, landing evolution makes me wonder how many of his lives he has used up. However he makes the same money I do, and his crew makes up for it by having one of the best records in the company as far as having no personal injuries or oil spills in years. But I HATE to be navigating in the same harbor when he is around.
I am not the only one ON the water, nor do I trust anyone else, until I see evidence to make me trust them. Whether it is aboard my vessel, or in the range lights of theirs. I am not a good poker player. I don’t read ‘faces’ well. Past experience is the tell.[/QUOTE]
And most people including myself carry those same sentiments - no difference there in principal and could not see how there could be.
[QUOTE=tengineer;64218]“When I’m on my way home after my tour, the important things to me are that there were no injuries, spills or damage. And that my crew and myself look forward to working together on the next tour.”
For a professional that is all that matters. Companies come and go. Your personal integrity, the mutual respect between you and your shipmates is what matters.
Lose either your integrity or the mutual respect of your shipmates and you will never be able to buy that back for any sum of money.
tenginner
[/QUOTE]
Absolutely.
…and these last two pages was where I was going when I made my original post on this thread.
Thank-you Gentlemen.
When I went through those joke classes (DP Induction and DP Simulator) it was reassuring to know that I worked on a OSV where we still hooked up the Med Moor. I was admittedly smug about how many things could (not) go wrong with my mooring, especially compared to how many things can go wrong with the DP systems.
DP has its place, and clearly you can’t work a floater in deep water without a good system. But it’s also way over used. I have run off several mates who will use DP as a parking break or pay no attention whatsoever to the weather and how hard the ship is working to stay on station. A good boat handler knows what position the boat can hold easily and what position the boat will not or will barely hold. If you’re constantly and always on DP, you loose those skills. It’s become common practice for boats to maneuver at the dock on DP. Really? It’s either poor skills (fired) or lazy (fired).
DP is a tool, but plenty of guys use it as a crutch or lounge chair. I don’t object to using it when you have to, but there’s a time and place.
-dennis
The biggest problem I have encounter are egos!! Some mariners are to proud to admit or understand their own limitations. I truly believe that as long as we all understand our own limitations as well as the limitations of our equipment (tug, tow, OSV, DP system, thrusters, ext…) we could all be safer as mariners. The reason we are all out here is to support our families and give them a good living.
I’ve always said that a man’s gots ta know his limitations
