Unions, Jones Act and Protectionism

https://www.ft.com/content/42fa0906-c4f5-11e8-8670-c5353379f7c2

Paywall May affect depending on how often you have visited Financial Times…

(Ditto for NYtimes access)

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From reading the links in the 2 most recent comments I see the billionaire bankers at the Federal Reserve are against fighting back in the 40 year trade war with China & the New York Times is batting a 1,000 at being against any position that Trump holds. Who would have thunk it? You can say what you want about The New York Times but without doubt it’s one of the most consistent newspapers on the planet. For the last 2 years, everyday during my 6mo a year at sea I’ve read the NYT Digest cover to cover & I don’t recall them ever having a positive story or opinion on a position that Trump took. If they printed a single good word about Trump it was on one of the days when I was at home where I don’t read the the NYT.

But anywho, below are 3 links from similar liked minded people who authored the links above about fighting back in a trade war with China & American protectionism policies. These 3 links are about how terrible the Jones Act is. We should all read these 5 links & then call our DC representatives & tell them we don’t support any retaliatory actions against China or against the race to the bottom capitalists in the US & that the Jones Act & our cabotage laws are garbage & should be trashed. Let’s listen to the 1 sided NYT, the billionaires at the Fed & the kind hearted people at the CATO institute because everyone knows they have the interest of middle-class America in mind. Screw fighting back in a trade war, screw any protectionism laws for American workers & screw the Jones Act!

https://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/jones-act-burden-america-can-no-longer-bear

"First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out–
Because I was not a socialist

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."

A nice poem by Martin Niemoller for any mariners who provide for their families by the benefits of protectionism laws like the Jones Act but who find any excuse possible to be against fighting back in a Trade War with China because they hate Trump so much. Our day is coming & we will only have ourselves to blame. Of course the same Jones Act benifitees who oppose fighting back in the Trade War with protectionism tariffs will blame others when the same foreign interests & race to the bottom capitalists finally sink the Jones Act. It’s embedded in our character to blame others.

You can be in favor of Jones Act protections and still be against the fickle manner in which tariffs have been employed (as well as the inconsistent exemptions issued to special friends). They are not comparable beyond a limited area. Protectionism is not an all or nothing game, and there are times and points where industries should be affected in favor of the consumers who would benefit from free trade in some sectors. And the manner in which the President speaks about trade, or takes actions does not show a solid grasp of how it works. He thinks he can tariff the US steel industry into its glory days, he can’t, we don’t have the ore, better to maintain a diverse supply, secured in free trade agreements than fool ourselves. But if he thinks that, he thinks that and to him, it’s worth the effects on consumers and losses in jobs. Yet he calls for the Saudis and OPEC to keep lowering oil prices—bad for the US oil industries, bad for Jones Act ships offshore–does he not get this is the same thing? Two different answers for similar issues? If you think newspapers publishing facts about the impacts are somehow only biased, then you’re not bothering to inform yourself and won’t make good analysis. For example, you seem to think China is related to steel–they are rarely a the top ten supplier and we get less than 4% from them and that’s not just in the last couple years.

One more reason that you won’t tariff your way into more steel—and a key distinction between the trade actions and Jones Act–one is being done with poorly justified executive action in places and therefore has no legs, probably won’t last, even into another republican president. No one will waste a lot of time making a bunch of new blast furnaces on that assurance of protectionism, they other industries may decide a few bad quarters due to tariff effects will justify moving away from an inconsistent business environment for better pastures. Also, not a lot of spare employment–a good for Trump news item I think I saw in the Times and the other ‘biased’ papers. But Jones Act is law, and therefore resilient and can be counted on to last as it has–but it doesn’t grow a large industry unless there are other forces involved–like offshore oil.

You shape and improve domestic industries by making smart long term agreements, not short term tantrums.

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The trade war with China is over manufacturing, not steel. Trumps retaliatory tariffs started with appliances & solar panels. China’s unfair trading practices & government subsidies concerning solar panels was in the news well before Trump announced he would run for president. The thing is, not a single politician, Republican or Democrat every did anything about it before. The trade war with China has been going on for decades, Period. The only difference now is we have a president who acknowledged war was being waged against us to undermine our middle-class & we have a president who has attempted to fight back.

I completely understand the never-Trump mentality. I didn’t vote for him either but I absolutely CAN’T imagine demanding the status quo & advocating for the inaction that shuddered hundreds of thousands of factories & businesses across the nation in the last 70 years. If I were being raped I would fight back until I didn’t have an ounce of strength left in me. The American middle-class has been getting raped for decades concerning trade & manufacturing. For the first time we have a POTUS who wants to at least try to put up a fight & the media, Democrats & many unions side with our rapists & demand we go back to laying down & taking it. Ridiculous. Don’t pretend to be surprised or feel butthurt when the same groups that you side with now against fighting back in the trade war comes after your job with a cheap foreign worker as a replacement.

BTW, I don’t think American capitalist shipping & energy companies hire American sailors because they want to, they hire us because they have to. I would be thrilled if the US had similar job protectionism laws for telephone operators, cell phone makers, clothing manufacturers etc. At least a quarter of all US oil exports should be on US ships after we build up a fleet. If a company wants to sell to US markets I think it should be mandatory to have a portion of the manufacturing process in the US. But again, I know none of that will ever happen because there’s too many advocates for our capitalist/ foreign rapists.

This “trade war” is a stupid shotgun approach to a complicated problem which Trump is incapable of understanding. His chief negotiator Peter Navarro is a Democratic economist. The entire thing is a cluster **** which has been handled badly and only hurt US consumers and businesses.The problem lies within the USA not China.

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Quit defending our rapists. China has been stealing intellectual property/R&D from all other countries since before Trump announced he would run for president. There’s countless articles on it. Do a Google search. It has been a major gripe from the US & the EU countries for decades. No national leader of any importance ever dreamed of doing anything about. If China stealing from us is our problem/fault then the only way to fix it would be to change the way we deal with China which is what Trump is doing.

Edit:

Ha, I remembered one time when a The New York Times article I read mentioned Trump & didn’t include a negative statement.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2017/08/15/opinion/china-us-intellectual-property-trump.amp.html

That was 2017, here is 2019:

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“When more than 95 percent of our potential customers live outside our borders, we can’t let countries like China write the rules of the global economy. We should write those rules, opening new markets to American products while setting high standards for protecting workers and preserving our environment.

That’s what the agreement reached today in Atlanta will do. Trade ministers from the 12 nations that make up the Trans-Pacific Partnership finished negotiations on an agreement that reflects America’s values and gives our workers the fair shot at success they deserve. “

—President Obama, 2015, but your preferred media made you think that it was all BS… TPP would have countered China, and even solved the dairy products with Canada issue - but nope, a certain sector of media was against it so there you went.

And if you wish to recast the China trade issue as not involving steel, well you can appreciate the confusion since your posts were about steel, and only mentioned China.

The fact is, Trump is a poor deal maker. The only reason there was a meeting mid December with the Chinese was to have some face saving meeting to avoid the round of tariffs Trump preciously said would take effect Dec 15 that would have had direct effect on consumers. They made a Phase I deal again, like in October made some statements China wouldn’t confirm said it wasn’t in writing again and the Chinese agreed not to say anything and kicked the can down the road which means more leverage against the US position. Trump is an awful deal maker.

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Here’s the trump administration fighting hard for the Jones Act. Really standing up for American jobs

First thing, shame on you @Kennebec_Captain for linking to that clearly hyperbole non article that was only 2 paragraphs long that referenced/linked to another article from a source that has historically been anti-Trump. To make it worse, the only way to read the referenced article is to pay for it. Come 'on man?
The way the 2 paragraph joke article is written it tries to get the reader to believe Trump has now given the Chinese permission to steal intellectual property from us? I expect better from you KC. Tis, tis.

The joke article was from May 2. Below is an even newer article from a liberal source dated May 9th. It goes into way more detail. When I Googled, “Trump drops intellectual property demands” only your joke article & the paysite came up. You’re spreading fake news.

Also. Bill Clinton did nothing to protect intellectual property rights. W Bush did nothing to protect intellectual property rights. Obama did nothing to protect intellectual property rights. Trump is the only President who ever tried & you people want to crucify him even trying. You people are out of your heads if you don’t even think it is worth trying. The do-nothing attitude makes absolutely no sense.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/time.com/5585902/donald-trump-china-trade-negotiations/%3Famp=true

Doesn’t begin there:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-23/trump-jones-act-natural-gas

That’s nonsense. His stance on intellectual property is not why anyone wants to crucify him, but it’s not enough to forgive all the rest. No one is saying jeez this stance on intellectual property with China is nuts! You can’t overlook all the stuff for one thing that’s right. But don’t pretend no one tried. If you get a TPP to counter China. Make trade more favorable elsewhere then that’s the same as countering intellectually property issues in trade with China.

“Amongst the various terms of the TPP, the provisions concerning intellectual property (IP) were some of the most heavily negotiated terms. Such IP provisions had been heavily pursued, mainly by the United States, as enhanced protection over IP would benefit more developed and innovative economies such as the United States.“

So don’t say no one was trying to protect IP. You’d just be wrong like on so many other issues.

My first comment on this thread was #17 & I DID mention washing machine, manufacturing & solar panels. Comment #1 is mine as well but I wrote that on a different thread. But no matter, apologies for any confusion, that wasn’t my intent.

If I’m wrong then it is nice to be wrong with the best of them?

From The New York Times article I linked to earlier:

“For decades, successive American administrations have concluded that some level of exposure to China’s depredations against our intellectual property is simply the cost of doing business with the world’s now second-largest economy. This is not acceptable.”

And protecting steel industry jobs, linking the Jones Act protectionism to supporting them in kind. But yeah I was maybe pushing your stance to an all or nothing position so that’s fair to bring up and I know you are interested in broader positions in the China US trade issue on other materials.

But that’s also part of the point, it isn’t one country related and a zero sum beat China into submission thing. TPP was about taking business elsewhere—which can have positive effects on trouble actors. But that’s another point against Trump’s style. He thinks he can beat some party into submission, didn’t work in NK, hasn’t worked in Iran and certainly not in China. Trade wars are not easy to win, and in the end, honestly, in the end, this man is incapable of honesty and narcissistic, and that can work if it’s a less well known thing in deal making but he has telegraphed over and over to world leaders he’d take the defeats, say they are victories and ignore the results. No one can take his negotiating positions seriously, plenty can manipulate him to make a bad deal with a minimal amount of cover. This makes him the worst trade rep ever.

Yeah, that’s why taking trade to TPP, which creates a non-China option with strong IP protection built in a great idea. So why did Trump kill what would have improved things?

Glad you like the Times now.

I hope you have a great New Year. We’re gonna circle back to this debate on Jones Act protection when Trump gives away Jones Act trade to UK Red ensigns to make Boris happy.

I’ll read anything & everything with no problems. Believing what I read is where I have a hard time.

Happy & prosperous New Years to you as well! I’m 6,200 miles from home but plan to enjoy it the best I can.

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Yeah that’s a ways alright, have a safe hitch and return.

How did thread on the Jones Act and Unions morph into an us-v-them over trump?
Politicians of either party will work for us when they fear us, and at the moment we are too small and dispersed to have much of an effect (though hats off to those plos who support us anyway)
If each of us put half as much effort into educating the public as we do bashing each other over petty political differences we would have a chance of making some headway, but instead we’ll keep fighting the “Bud V Miller” wars while the Kochs and the Bezoses keep our wages down and send our jobs overseas.

Happy Holidays, if you find me in a Seattle bar I’ll buy you a drink

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