The Jones Act Makes Shipping More Expensive

Professional Mariner Forum
63

Perhaps you are not getting the entire picture. I don’t know anything about India, but I do know several EU countries have no upgrade courses, tests, or continuing education requirements (or stupid assessments). Some don’t even require sailing as chief mate or 1st engineer to get master/chief.

The long 6month coursework for India might be something similar to what fellow sailors from Croatia have told me. Many attend an apprentice type school to get their jr officer engineering license. But to become a senior officer (2nd engineer/chief mate) they must return to school and get a full university degree. Considering most USA unlimited officers have a university degree, this is not a relevant comparison.

2 Likes
64

I don’t know (or intend to research) the requirement, rule and regulations for issuance if COC
in every flag state that do issue them, but here is a link to a site with a lot of info for those who want to do research:
https://www.edumaritime.net/
PS> Yes I know it is a commercial organization, but with links to official Gov. info.

As an example I looked at what it take to get COC as an “Unlimited Master” in USA:
https://www.edumaritime.net/uscg-mmc/uscg-requirements-for-master

And in Norway (NOR flag):
https://www.edumaritime.net/nma-norway/deck-officer-class-1-master-mariner-requirements

PS> NMA do not issue any non-STCW compliant COCs, even for fishing vessels ,or pleasure crafts over 15 m. LOA:
https://www.edumaritime.net/nma-norway/norway-seafarer-pleasure-craft-requirements#1

If anybody wants more to read, here is a scholarly study written by a Romanian:
https://scholar.google.no/scholar_url?url=https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Cristina-Dragomir/publication/282184800_norw/data/5606b94c08aea25fce38416c/norw.rtf&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2X8DZPOwN8OymAHNxqjYAw&scisig=AAGBfm2hZr2JDhLaWU2QxGBx0Khj1mIodQ&oi=scholarr

BTW: In Norway the Maritime Authority is civilian, nothing to do with Coast Guard or Navy:

Maritime education is free, public and civilian, nothing to do with the Military.
All exam papers are prepared centrally and only made available 15 min. before exam starts.
Exams for each grade in each subject are held on the same days at all Maritime Schools
There are no oral exams, no “multiple choice” and all are written. Answers are submitted either on paper or electronically and assess centrally, by sensors who do not know the candidates identity. Exams are held in May/June, at the end of each school year (9 months)
How do I know these thing? Because I have been attending exams at the local Maritime School as a Examination Watch for a few years now. The job is to ensure that only allowed tools, books are used. All mobile phones are collected and no websites with communication facilities are allowed on their personal PCs. Teachers don’t have access to the examination room.

65

That’s only for the national endorsement. There are significant additional requirements for the STCW certificate.

2 Likes
66

That only applies to small vessels that are exempt from STCW domestically as found in 46 CFR 15.1101(a)(2)

All other seagoing vessels are required to comply with STCW at all times. (That’s why OSVs, that only ever operate in the GOM require STCW.)

46 CFR 15.1101(a)

Except as noted in paragraphs (a)(1) and (2) of this section, the regulations in this subpart apply to seagoing vessels as defined in § 10.107 of this subchapter.

46 CFR 10.107 “Seagoing vessel”

Seagoing vessel means a ship that operates beyond the boundary line specified in 46 CFR part 7.

2 Likes
67

You make some valid points.
Btw, I went to learn myself about “Admiralty coefficient” and didn’t find it in that NVIC.

68

Interesting discussion. The USCG States" The International Convention on Standards of Training, Certification and Watchkeeping for Seafarers (or STCW), sets qualification standards for personnel on seagoing ships. These requirements have been incorporated into U.S. Regulation and Policy". So as @jdcavo points out each flag state decides how they will determine training/testing for STCW.

However, the USCG will accept classes/courses from outside the US/not approved by the USCG, as long as they “cover at least the scope and content of the training outlined in the STCW Code” for certain STCW endorsements. For example:

If we can’t agree or find strong enough evidence to say that US Seafarers have more/better training than your average FOC mariner, we should at the least recognize that the US (and plenty of other countries) have a solid reputation for integrity in mariner licensing. The Philippines doesn’t.

They have been dealing with a mariner credentialing problem for a bit now, and recently its even been front page news. Basically they gave credentials to people that didn’t meet STCW. An entire quarter of the planet’s seafarers are Filipino by the way.

69

Umm. Short memory?

2 Likes
70

Screenshot 2023-03-05 065706
Screenshot 2023-03-05 065706982×382 52.8 KB

Not going to lie I had to google it too, and I didn’t upgrade all that long ago, hope they don’t take my license away over this.

A coefficient used in the preliminary estimations of the power required in a new design to attain the desired speed. It is presented by the formula:

where: D = displacement in tons, V = speed in knots, P = shaft power in kW.

Values range from 400 to 600, the higher the value the more economic the vessel.

Admiralty coefficient, Admiralty constant

1 Like
71

This makes sense, I knew we probably didn’t do STCW for fun, or for the off chance of a foreign shipyard. I appreciate the clarification.

72

Yes, this is true. There was a scam and some of the people involved are headed to prison.
How many lakhs is it now to get a job for Indians? And what nation’s seafarers are in danger of being banned from EU service? We’ve all got problems to one degree or another. Variability in skills and ability across nations was supposed to be reduced by STCW. You can’t legislate intellect, sadly. Stupidity is the true international language.

2 Likes
74

No. The Great Lakes are exempt from STCW requirements in both the US and Canada.

1 Like
75

Your “example|” is one of, if not the only endorsement (GMDSS Maintainer) where the required training does not have to be approved by the USCG. For policy applicable to most other endorsements, see the still valid Policy Letter 7-01:
…all training required by the STCW Code A tables in chapters II and III must be approved or accepted by the U. S. Coast Guard if the training is part of, or leads to, the issuance of an STCW certificate by the United States.

76

Yes, agreed. I think there was 1 other one. The majority of them do require USCG approval. I was just pointing out that there are situations where the USCG would accept another interpretation of STCW

77

Right, the US cracked down hard and swiftly. The Philippines has been dealing with their issues for years without solution.

1 Like
78

It’s not really what you may be suggesting. In the case of GMDSS Maintainer, the training doesn’t have to be approved by the Coast Guard, but when a mariner applies, it’s still the US Coast Guard who is going to evaluate the training and decide if it meets STCW. Even if the training was approved by another administration, the Coast Guard won’t be allowing the training because another administration approved it, although that would be considered as evidence of it meeting STCW, the final determination is still up to the USCG.

The other one is medical care PIC, where we will accept being a licensed medical professional without having specific training approved. In that case, we aren’t allowing training approved by other administrations. Rather, the USCG has determined that the professional requirements for the medical certification exceed those for the STCW endorsement. It’s still the USCG that making the determination of meeting STCW.

79

True… not sure how in depth they look though. Do they see a legit looking cert with a reputable name on it and just say ok?

80

For medical professionals? They can use the same process they use to see if the doctor or nurse practitioner whop signed your medical form is licensed.

81

Prime proof that the evaluation criteria is written by cubicle egg-heads.

2 Likes
82

I get so tired of this stuff.

You can only read the same half truths and obfuscating stories so much so often. That this video comes from another legacy media talking head, underscores how little actual investigative journalism they probably did. It all makes me nauseous.

I live in Hawaii. I work in this industry. I know this stuff because I am living through it everyday. You can repeal the Jones Act tomorrow with a snap of your fingers. If you owned a US flag ship with Americans and are a US corporation, what would YOU do if they changed the law?

You’d do what any other sane business guy would do; incorporate in a foreign country to lower your taxes, reflag your ship to some low ball third world country, fire all the Americans, hire eastern Europeans to man your ship, and do business as usual.

Would I lower my freight rates? No, why would I do that? What little money I just saved myself by doing everything listed above, I’m gonna pocket that gravy. Thats for me. Plus, I probably gotta make the shareholders feel like they’re getting a little something, eh?

But on a daily basis, my operational cost won’t change whether I’m a US ship or Chinese flag. Lets say we have two identical ships side by side running between LA and Honolulu.

  1. I’m still paying the same for stevedore services in Los Angeles and Honolulu.
  2. I’m still paying for Pilots, Tugs, and Line Handlers.
  3. I’m still paying all the same port fees, dockage, moorage, port entry, etc.
  4. I’m still paying for fuel.
  5. I’m still paying for groceries and supplies and parts.
  6. I’m still having to fly crew back and forth, albeit maybe not as much or as often.
  7. I’m still paying for ship agency fees.

At the end of the each day, we’re all still paying the same to run our ships operationally. So maybe your mortgage is less on a foreign hull. But otherwise, the run these two ship are on are virtually the same, with the sky high price of fuel being the single biggest component that truly impacts the daily cost.

All the other issues may be valid, but getting back to the core “complaint” so often heard about the Jones Act causing high retail prices here in Hawaii, I say no.

When I hear somebody complaining about the Jones Act here, I ask them, “So how much should it cost to bring stuff to Hawaii on a ship?” (remember, the trade lane here is one way. Stuff comes in, empty boxes go back)

I never get a real answer, usually just more whining.

6 Likes
83

And spread out over the life of the ship it would merely be noticable on a per container basis.

2 Likes