Sea Star's El Faro

[QUOTE=LongshoreSam;171125]Devastating news breaking on CNN regarding the S.S. El Faro.

So who do we believe, the crewmen who worked on the El Faro, or TOTE, who’s suits have never stepped onto the El Faro?
[/QUOTE]

I would take all their comments with a grain of salt. Water leaking into a crew room could be from anything from a bad air handler drain to a leaking port gasket, who knows. An SIU unlicensed guy isn’t necessarily the best judge of material conditions.

The press needs to ask questions of the CG and TOTE that are relevant to the loss, not some guy’s personal and very subjective opinion of the ship and his relationship with the master.

Real questions might start with: What was the scope of work the riding crew was tasked to perform?

Did the ship depart with any 835s?
Were both boilers online when it departed?
Were both boilers online at the time propulsion was lost?

It is nearly inconceivable that the master of a ship with a hurricane bearing down on him would not say anything to the company about the reason for loss of propulsion or how long it might take to effect repairs or bring the plant back online. If the plant was damaged and propulsion could not be restored why did the master or the company not contact the CG to at least inform them of the potential for a serious incident? Why was the first contact between the company and the CG a phone call initiated by the CG in response to that single hit from an EPIRB? Again, it is inconceivable that the master’s total conversation with the company was simply, oh, by the way we have lost propulsion and we have a 15 degree list but the flooding is under control, have a nice day, talk to you later … which while my version is absurd is no less absurd than what we are expected to believe is the truth. It is equally hard to believe there was not a near constant stream of emails or phone calls between the master of El Faro and the master of El Yunque and nothing was mentioned about the loss of propulsion, its cause or estimated time to restore.

[QUOTE=rag_hauler;171140]There are some countries that are trying to make more and more aviation accidents criminal violations. This is not considered by many pilots to be a good thing for safety. If jail time is likely, the culture becomes never say anything to anyone about anything - period.[/QUOTE]

still having a Sword of Damocles hanging over your neck makes a person act with a bit more caution and circumspection. If I am going to lose more than just my license lest there be a sinking I will think very hard about the decisions I make. Of course, this is with the expectation that the master will be a survivor.

I do not like the criminalization of the master’s actions except when gross negligence is implicated. I was a vocal defender of the EL FARO’s master early on but am now not feeling he deserves such defense. He was obviously planning to go under the center of circulation and I believe would have made it without the machinery casualty but to place a ship into a perilous place where the continual operation of the machinery was life or death for all is reckless beyond all measure.

[QUOTE=LongshoreSam;171125]Devastating news breaking on CNN regarding the S.S. El Faro.

" Three former crew members of El Faro, a ship that apparently sank during Hurricane Joaquin, told CNN the ship had structural problems and questioned whether it should have sailed with a major storm in the region.The 40-year-old cargo ship never made it to Puerto Rico after it left Jacksonville, Florida, last week, and appears to have sunk near islands in the Bahamas.

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The ex-crew members, who each last traveled on the ship at some point this year, said the ship had issues with taking on water.
“The chief cook’s room was constantly leaking water,” Kurt Bruer, a quartermaster who spent six months on El Faro, said. There were other problems. "The drainage didn’t work well on the ship."
The company that operated the ship, Totes Maritime, said in an email to CNN that the ship met all standards and certifications regardless of its age.
“The El Faro was a well-maintained vessel, classed by the American Bureau of Shipping and regularly inspected by that classification society and the (U.S. Coast Guard),” Tote said.

But Bruer and the other ex-crew members said the ship was showing its age.
Chris Cash, whose last voyage on El Faro ended in January, said it was time to send the ship to the scrapyard.
“The El Faro was on its … needed a death certificate. It was a rust bucket,” Cash said. "You don’t take a ship like that … that ship wasn’t supposed to be on the water."
He said the company seemed interested in maintaining the ship but doing so at minimal cost.
“They were bandaging the ship with extra steel all the time,” Cash said. "It seemed like they didn’t want to put any money into the ship. When things would break they would just patch it up rather than really fix it."
Marvin Hearman, on the ship when it returned to Jacksonville in late August, said there was rust everywhere on El Faro and compared it to a 40-year-old car. He also said the cook’s room leaked a lot of water. Bruer said the ship had holes in its deck.
While everything on the ship was old, everyone felt safe, Hearman said.
Still, he and the others were stunned the ship left while there was a big storm in its potential path.
Cash said: "I was very surprised when I heard about the ship leaving during a storm, but when I saw (the captain’s) picture it all made sense."
Cash thought Capt. Michael Davidson was stubborn and cocky, but the other two disagreed that Davidson was to blame.
Bruer, who was terminated by Davidson for a reason he wouldn’t disclose, said Tote was at fault for the old ship being permitted to set sail into stormy seas. Hearman said he thought Davidson likely was trying to prove a point to the company that he could do the job.
“He was a good captain,” Hearman said.
The shipping company said it trusted Davidson to make the right decision.
“Tote Maritime has great confidence in its highly experienced officers,” the company said. It added that it wouldn’t comment on the ex-crew members’ comments about the ship and the captain. "

So who do we believe, the crewmen who worked on the El Faro, or TOTE, who’s suits have never stepped onto the El Faro?
[/QUOTE]

Sorry for using a Quote of the full post…

When I first heard one of these men speaking on TV, the first thought was I wonder if they will be finding out that their prospect for shipping out might be than a little bit harder if the Union or Shipping Companies paid attention to the interviews.

Now, I am not saying that these Guys should have NOT given the interviews as that is their right and some of the things said might have needed saying!

[QUOTE=c.captain;171146]I do not like the criminalization of the master’s actions except when gross negligence is implicated.[/QUOTE]

I can’t edit my posts so wish to correct that to “willful” negligence…knowingly placing one’s ship into peril is a willful act just as acquiescing to someone doing something which proved fatal which any “reasonable” master would consider as dangerous and which should have been prohibited.

This is course brings up the issue of maritime jurisprudence…can any judge be able to adequately render a decision on a massive maritime casualty if he is himself not experienced at sea? Should a maritime law judge be required to be a master first before earning a JD? Does any nation have such a requirement?

[QUOTE=juneau74;171013]Well - even tho a newby to the Forum - I can pass the “smell test” - Unlimited Master’s in 1974, Alaskan Pilotage in 1977 and Lake Michigan Pilotage in 1993 - 25 years active - 18 as Master - US Gulf, East Coast, West Coast, Alaska and Round-the-World. 37,000 to 190,000 DW Tons.

I encourage all to check the Background/Credibility of the NTSB Vice Chairwoman who is heading up the Investigation - a Political Appointee - NO Maritime Background and NO Aviation Background….her verbal First Priority is “finding the VDR”……I would think it would be finding the sunken SHIP!!!

I re-activated on gCaptain to hopefully get “facts” that might not be available elsewhere - what I found on the Forum (and NOT all of it!!) was not what I expected……….“tenure” on a Maritime Website Forum does NOT equal “Maritime Credibility” - I’m sorry Guys & Gals it just does NOT - especially in this Case……….

Mike Davidson was my 3rd Mate and I can truly say that I could not rate another 3rd Mate that was more Professional than he was - Mature, eager to learn, Professional, Caring and Dependable - we all know (especially as Masters) that we take RISKS at times, but balance Risks vs overall Safety. We are also - all HUMAN - and make mistakes. But when WE make those mistakes they can lead to severe consequences. I’m SURE Mike had a Logical Plan - the problem is that Hurricanes (like LOWS in the Gulf of Alaska and elsewhere on the Planet) don’t always do “logical” things……………it appears that he tried to get around it to the West - but then the Storm jogged to the West as well………

I personally believe that this incident is going to be the “Exxon Valdez of the Containership Industry”…………[/QUOTE]

I agree with everything you said except the final sentence. I had Mike as 3rd and later 2nd Mate in the 90’s and am sure I used very similar words as yours on evaluations. I have nothing but very positive memories of him on several tankers. He exemplified the term ‘Professional Mariner’.

I have great doubts that this will become the “Exxon Valdez of the Containership Industry”. The Exxon Valdez kept the attention of the public and media for months because of the pollution. Changes had to occur; some good, some bad, some just to satisfy the public’s need to see changes made. By the time the NTSB provides it’s report next year this event will be ancient history to all but those of us who spent or are spending our lives in the industry. At that time corporate interests and pressure will rule and we are likely to see only minor changes. I hope that I am wrong but 40 years at sea has taught me otherwise.

Not exactly. Any airplane flying above 18,000 feet, which is almost all jets in cruise, is required to fly under IFR rules. These rules assume you cannot see each other and air traffic control is tasked with separating you from other airplanes. What has changed is that since GPS has become common, airplanes no longer have to fly defined routes between radio beacons. You could conceivably file a flight plan between any two points “direct” and not have to follow any of the predefined airways.

[QUOTE=c.captain;171143]I pretty much believe that everytime a ro/ro has foundered the investigation has found that water ingress into the vehicle decks played a role and generally there have been changes to regulations as a result.

of course it bears asking if the EL FARO complied with all current IMO vehicle carrier vessel regulations or if the age of the ship obviated her from them? if so, then expect mandatory compliance to be implemented regardless of a vessel’s age.

regarding Max KG and minimum righting arm regulations, it is hard to say a minimum fixed number since the hydrodynamics of a vessel’s hull make it hard to fit into specific numbers but margins of safety in minimum righting arm need to be seriously looked at especially with the thought of wind heel in extreme cases and with max heel angles permitted. There also should be regulations implemented concerning the minimum amount of sw ballast capacity a ro/ro needs specifically related to storm survival. According to the ABS record, EL FARO’s total SW ballast capacity was a mere 347tons for a ship with a load displacement of 14971tons so far less than even 3%.

I would also like to know if these ships always sailed with full bunkers from Jacksonville or if they might only bunker every other port call?

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so you will need to implement a vessel traffic service for oceans where a master will be routed as with an airliner but that means governments of the world implementing such a scheme. If not directed voyages then monitored for compliance. [B]Besides don’t airliner captains all now have permission to fly free except in controlled zones?[/B][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=captjacksparrow;171104]I’m totally with Vittone on this one.

It’s not that there won’t be lots of little things, arranged in their own particular way, that makes this tragedy somehow “unique” from the others like it. There will likely be plenty of fresh lessons-learned contained in the various reports that could conceivably be useful or helpful to us and so, on that level, it is nominally “helpful.”

What I think Vittone said, very clearly, is that there won’t be any truly new revelations here, nothing that hasn’t been seen before numerous times. When we stare at the smaller details we completely lose sight of the bigger picture, and it was that bigger picture that got El Faro.

The distinction between a problem and a predicament needs to be understood. El Faro didn’t have a solvable problem or two that, once solved, would have allowed them safe passage. And that’s a very bitter pill for most people to swallow because we’re generally hard-wired to want in the worst way to identify and fix problems, thereby making things better/safer. Why wouldn’t we? Our lives may be on the line. It also makes us feel purposeful and good.

El Faro was, instead, in a predicament that they ultimately could not get out of: they wound up in close proximity to a storm with very deadly potential and as a result they needed everything to go right for them to make it out the other side. Their safety margin became steadily thinner with each mile they advanced, eventually becoming razor thin. Everything didn’t go right (they had a problem or problems) and they didn’t make it out. This predicament was largely of human origin, and no amount of equipment or survival training would have made a difference in this particular instance because of the strength of the storm and where they were in relation to it. If it was survivable, in the strictest sense, it would have required a miracle.

In the end it’s a relatively simple case of getting much too close to something that can easily kill you. Many times it won’t, but sometimes it will, and you can never be sure in advance when you’ll get away with it and when you won’t. Even if they had made it to San Juan in one piece with sea stories to tell it wouldn’t have changed the fact that it was still too risky. No one ever likes being told this, so mostly no one ever does.

The only sensible thing to do is use significantly larger safety margins when facing a high-consequence risk. That, however, costs time and money, up front, and gets to the real heart of the issue. Same for the Marine Electric, and the same for most others. I don’t have much confidence that this persistent pattern will change.

Why?

In 1986 NASA blew up the Challenger because they wouldn’t listen to the aerospace engineers’ warnings and chose to take chances they shouldn’t have. They had all the information they ever needed to avoid it, but just couldn’t help themselves.

In 2003 they did the same thing again with the Columbia. Sure, it was exterior tiles that time instead of booster o-rings. So what. Different technical problem, but the exact same decision-making failure (by some very bright people) as the last time that can be accurately paraphrased thusly: “yeah, we know there’s risk, but it’s always worked before. It’ll work again.” How many times have we all heard that one, or said it ourselves? It is a death trap for the ages, and will remain so.

If we can’t bring ourselves to stop taking such big unnecessary chances then we shouldn’t be surprised when we periodically get outcomes like El Faro. They’re baked right into the cake given general industry-wide attitudes about safety management. Everybody’s for it in theory. In practice, the ranks thin out pretty quickly, particularly as those up-front costs mount. There’s a pain threshold for everything, and everybody needs a pay check.

I don’t think that any true villainy or incompetence was at work here. Just garden-variety human-factor stuff. All the ISM Code in the world wouldn’t have stopped this one.[/QUOTE]

This is a good post.

I agree that there is likely “no true villainy or incompetence” at work here but I think it is unlikely that many here will agree with that. The routine here is many will figure out what errors were made, then proclaim that the person or persons who made these errors are either villains or incompetent, and then conclude that since they are good, competent people such a thing would never have happened to them. I think they are fooling themselves.

With regards to this incident two possible errors are “normalization of deviance” which was a factor in the Shuttle losses you mention. It’s possible that on this run with those ships working with small margins become “normal”

The second possible error which you also mentioned, the sunk cost trap, the reluctance to turn back increases with each mile traveled while the chipping away at safety margins seems relatively acceptable.

This was called “the danger of escalating commitment to a failing course of action over time.” by HBS professor Michael A. Roberto. This was a factor in the deaths on Mt. Everest that was documented in the book [I]Into Thin Air: A Personal Account of the Mount Everest Disaster[/I] by Jon Krakauer’s and was a case study in Roberto’s book. Good excerpt from that book here.

1)I have followed this discussion through almost 1000 posts over the past week. I am not in the merchant marine but I have a question: why did the Coast Guard not ask the FBI to secure all El Faro computers and records for an investigation into 33 cases of possible negligent homicide-- and did so over a week ago? The bald-headed captain was obviously and rightly trying to find survivors --but did his chain of command back him up and handled tasks he was too busy to address?

Note that I make no judgment of either Tote Shipping or of the Captain. I don’t think it is fair to suggest guilt of anyone without a through, objective investigation and overwhelming facts. But the first thing the police do at a possible crime scene is to secure the evidence, even when they don’t know who – if anyone – is guilty. Same for accident investigators. Assuming they are innocent, then both the Master and the executives of Tote Shipping deserve to have their reputations sustained by a fair investigation.

  1. But speaking hypothetically, if the Master was subject to economic coercion then has a guilty party not had plenty of time to find and destroy any evidence of such? The EL Faro is 15,000 feet down, possibly scattered in a debris field. Even if the VDR is retrieved, will it explain why the chain of command put it in such a dangerous position? Aren’t the primary facts that are needed contained within the communciations between the Master and the owners, recorded in company archives?
    Tote shipping says the Master had a good plan to escape danger-- well, then ,what specifically was that plan?
  2. Putting aside that hypothetical, then is there something in the environment encouraging risk-taking? Why could the El Faro not wait several days? Are slips for large ships in ports as tightly scheduled as are landing gates and departure times at some airports? Given the recession for the 2008 Wall Street crisis and the slowdown in China , how many openings are there for middle-aged , unemployed captains? If a high-maintenance, 40 year old ship is insured, does that affect how it is used?
  3. Plotting the location of a ship does not explain the various business pressures influencing those guiding the ship. What were they and should the US government take action to change or restrain them?
  4. Re the multiple posts earlier on urging our prayers and silence, how did that benefit the families? The El Faro was not in danger when she departed Jacksonville. But when she did enter danger, what recourse did the crew have? Jump overboard? Mutiny? Do the families not deserve justice? That crew was not just mariners – it was our fellow countrymen. The USA is not a third world country – it is rich and the lives of Americans should not be cheap.

[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;171151]This is a good post.

I agree that there is likely “no true villainy or incompetence” at work here but I think it is unlikely that many here will agree with that.[/QUOTE]

maybe not those but there must be some character failure because if the master (I choose deliberately to not use his name) had taken the route of maximum safety (Old Bahamas Channel) then the EL FARO would have arrived in San Juan perhaps a day late. I still say that without the machinery casualty there would also be no story and the entirety of this is that is was the worst thing that could happen in the worst possible place. Put the casualty anywhere else and also no story but the master placed the ship there where he did in perilous proximity to a massively powerful storm.

So what character failing would be indicated here…I could pick several to try on for size for will not. Just that somehow the master did fail the ship and those on her.

[QUOTE=c.captain;170920]John indicated that those services provided routing advice to the master which was not used…

While you might find my need to speak frankly at this early time as objectionable, I am not prepared to sit quietly and allow those who might be implicated to remain opaque and ellusive to answering critical questions to why this tragedy occurred.[/QUOTE]

1). Unless he told you that privately, I disagree. John didn’t say the master disregarded the advice, buy that they “didn’t utilize the weather routing services”. In essence that means that the company paid for forecasts but not for recommended routes.

2). There is a difference between saying “the ship most likely sunk” and being a dick like you were.

3). At this time there is no need or really expectation for the disclosure of the information you are claiming cover-up over. The search just ended, cool your heels a bit.

[QUOTE=MariaW;170923]You have enough data about ship position and hurricane forecast to draw conclusions about the 1-2-3 rule being followed or not. That data won’t change after all those officials investigate this incident.[/QUOTE]

You think so? And you’re basing this on how many years as a ships master? Have you plotted everything out yourself? The graphics when properly done, as those referenced by Kennebec Captain, don’t appear to violate the 1-2-3 rule at all.

[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;171155]1)2). There is a difference between saying “the ship most likely sunk” and being a dick like you were.[/QUOTE]

that epithet just earned you my report to the administrators asking your post to be deleted and for you to get the same warnings as I was given

just so you are prepared

[QUOTE=Carruthers;171152]1)I have followed this discussion through almost 1000 posts over the past week. I am not in the merchant marine but I have a question: why did the Coast Guard not ask the FBI to secure all El Faro computers and records for an investigation into 33 cases of possible negligent homicide-- and did so over a week ago? The bald-headed captain was obviously and rightly trying to find survivors --but did his chain of command back him up and handled tasks he was too busy to address?

Note that I make no judgment of either Tote Shipping or of the Captain. I don’t think it is fair to suggest guilt of anyone without a through, objective investigation and overwhelming facts. But the first thing the police do at a possible crime scene is to secure the evidence, even when they don’t know who – if anyone – is guilty. Same for accident investigators. Assuming they are innocent, then both the Master and the executives of Tote Shipping deserve to have their reputations sustained by a fair investigation.

  1. But speaking hypothetically, if the Master was subject to economic coercion then has a guilty party not had plenty of time to find and destroy any evidence of such? The EL Faro is 15,000 feet down, possibly scattered in a debris field. Even if the VDR is retrieved, will it explain why the chain of command put it in such a dangerous position? Aren’t the primary facts that are needed contained within the communciations between the Master and the owners, recorded in company archives?
    Tote shipping says the Master had a good plan to escape danger-- well, then ,what specifically was that plan?
  2. Putting aside that hypothetical, then is there something in the environment encouraging risk-taking? Why could the El Faro not wait several days? Are slips for large ships in ports as tightly scheduled as are landing gates and departure times at some airports? Given the recession for the 2008 Wall Street crisis and the slowdown in China , how many openings are there for middle-aged , unemployed captains? If a high-maintenance, 40 year old ship is insured, does that affect how it is used?
  3. Plotting the location of a ship does not explain the various business pressures influencing those guiding the ship. What were they and should the US government take action to change or restrain them?
  4. Re the multiple posts earlier on urging our prayers and silence, how did that benefit the families? The El Faro was not in danger when she departed Jacksonville. But when she did enter danger, what recourse did the crew have? Jump overboard? Mutiny? Do the families not deserve justice? That crew was not just mariners – it was our fellow countrymen. The USA is not a third world country – it is rich and the lives of Americans should not be cheap.[/QUOTE]
    Carrutherd - you are obviously not a mariner and while I strongly feel anyone is allowed to post on an open forum as this, you have made some asinine comments. Not sure if you are ambulance chasing or simply not that knowledgeable, in either case I ask you to take more time and thought before posting something like this. Following your lead:
  5. the El Faro appears to have gone down in upwards of 15,000 feet of water. As such, it is physically impossible to secure her computers. Could they have done that, they may have been able to save some crew.
  6. If you think there has been opportunity to destroy valid information, see my comment above.
  7. you want your Captain middle aged, not a 28 y/o punk who thinks he knows all. Further, no, berthing is not as tightly scheduled as airliners, but yes there are many factors associated with a berth.
  8. no, and the US government probably never would.
  9. you have obviously never had a situation where there was absolute uncertainty to the fate of a loved one, and I wish you never do. Those families know the sea can be a tough mistress and we owed it to them to hold onto hope until all possibilities were exhausted. Because no life is cheap, sir, all lives matter.

[QUOTE=The Commodore;171159]1) the El Faro appears to have gone down in upwards of 15,000 feet of water. As such, it is physically impossible to secure her computers. Could they have done that, they may have been able to save some crew.[/QUOTE]

I am certain what the poster had meant was SeaStar Line’s computers and all records pertaining to the voyage

additionally I would certainly hope the possibility exists that the satellite earth station may somehow have recorded the phone conversation held between the master and management on the morning of 10/1. It is very easy to store digitized voice traffic in far less space than recording analog voice traffic so perhaps it can be digitally recreated. It certainly can be expected that TOTE/SeaStar executives will have a great deal of trouble “recalling” the contents of that conversation. In fact, they appear to have forgotten its content within a couple of days of it taking place.

Yes, I was referring to El Faro related messages stored in Tote Shipping offices back on land. While I am not a nautical demigod, I do know that there is no form of scuba that would let a corporate executive go 15,000 feet under the surface to delete emails.

My question stands – have all El Faro communications stored on land been secured by the US Coast Guard and if not, why not? And I do not mean that as any accusation against Tote or the Captain – it just seems it would have been done over a week ago in an objective investigation. If a battered woman reports that she has been raped, police push her to accept a medical exam. Not because they think she is lying but because they have a systematic process for nailing down the facts ,eliminating various possible forms of deception, maintaining the chain of evidence and preventing tampering.

Does Tote say that the Captain was aware of the changing forecasts – do they have a series of emails in which they discussed the subject with him?

[QUOTE=Boston99;171057]That is exactly what I am saying. And anyone else who has been aboard these vessels will tell you the same. You can leave a port and everything seems secure, but once the vessel starts rolling heavily, these things are inevitable.[/QUOTE]
I’ve worked aboard the El Faro and the sister ship for the past 5 years as a longshoreman. I can’t recall 1 time the chief coming into port and telling us we had a.mess on our hands because lashing gave way and cargo is everywhere . Not speaking for any other ship and not saying it don’t happen but I haven’t seen it in 5 years.

[QUOTE=Topsail;171113]If a loaded jet would fly as well as a freighter in a hurricane, I can assure you that the amount of passenger’s complaints would prohibit repeating such an experience forever!

That was my point, they’re on the edge at high altitude. Unless you know you’re going to top the weather or at most be in the wisps of the tops with no more than very light turbulence, you shouldn’t go there. In ten years of command I disregarded air traffic control directions in flight twice and refused a takeoff clearance once. In the later case at Atlanta after viewing the thunderstorms on radar in the departure path I refused the clearance without a departure route change. The “tower” said, Taxi to the next turnoff and exit the runway, Delta, taxi into position". The Delta pilot said, " If he ain’t going, I ain’t !". THAT was professional courtesy !. We held on the runway for 10 minutes and they came back with a departure clearance that completely avoided the storms.
In the case of the ATC in flight deviations, we were in visual flight conditions and no separation of aircraft conflict occurred and that was the end of the story.
The reason why I’ve posted was to emphasize that the guy in charge sometimes has to dig in his heels. His junior officers should help him in this regard. I’ve read all the recent posts here and I realize it’s sometimes hard.

[QUOTE=Carruthers;171161]Yes, I was referring to El Faro related messages stored in Tote Shipping offices back on land. While I am not a nautical demigod, I do know that there is no form of scuba that would let a corporate executive go 15,000 feet under the surface to delete emails.

My question stands – have all El Faro communications stored on land been secured by the US Coast Guard and if not, why not? And I do not mean that as any accusation against Tote or the Captain – it just seems it would have been done over a week ago in an objective investigation. If a battered woman reports that she has been raped, police push her to accept a medical exam. Not because they think she is lying but because they have a systematic process for nailing down the facts ,eliminating various possible forms of deception, maintaining the chain of evidence and preventing tampering.

Does Tote say that the Captain was aware of the changing forecasts – do they have a series of emails in which they discussed the subject with him?[/QUOTE]

suddenly there is nothing being said once the search for survivors ended which fills me with dread for what agreements are being reached being closed doors in Jacksonville. I fear greatly that there is a complicity between TOTE/SeaStar, the ABS and the USCG over this tragedy in which each played a role and which none wishes ever to be discovered even by the NTSB who will end up becoming stonewalled at every turn to discover the truth. To say that what little faith I might still have had before this disaster is now pulverized to dust is a massive understatement.

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[QUOTE=CJ_RORO;171162]I’ve worked aboard the El Faro and the sister ship for the past 5 years as a longshoreman. [/QUOTE]

CJ…I have been wanting to ask if you physically were able to see these pipes which the Polish riding gang were intending to load into the engineroom?

[QUOTE=cmjeff;171106]Sorry can’t help but make a comparison.

Look under “General Conclusions” Page 120 of the Marine Electric Casualty Report. The VERY FIRST conclusion is:

“By virtue of its relationship to the vessel oweners, ABS [I][B]cannot by considered impartial [/B][/I]in spite of the many years experience of their surveyors”.

Now flip back to page 86 of that report and read the findings under “ABS INSPECTION ROLE”. Does any of that sound familiar?

No? Go look over the documents here: USCG’s Alternate Compliance Program.

Now does page 86 sound familiar??[/QUOTE]

Wow… This does look important (and slightly unbelievable!) thanks for sharing Jeff.

Was the El Faro enrolled in this program??

[QUOTE=john;171165]Wow… This does look important (and slightly unbelievable!) thanks for sharing Jeff.

Was the El Faro enrolled in this program??[/QUOTE]

while not clear from the USCG PSIX site or the ABS Record it does appear that the vessel was. ACP is spoecifically mentioned in the USCG interactions with the EL FARO in their page for the ship.

I am shocked this information is still publicaly available

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correction…comfirmed enrolled in the Alternate Compliance Program

ABS Class Notations
✠ A1, Vehicle Carrier, , ✠ AMS

Additional Notations
RRDA, NVIC 2-95 Change 2 ACP