Ironically, the Army makes significantly better seamen than the Navy.
4 Likes
In the Navy, the smaller floating units, like tugs and so forth are operated by enlisted. Only units that are bigger and more complex have commissioned officers.
All the floating units the Army has are too small and not complex enough to cross that threshold.
It’s somewhat analogous to the commercial side where some sectors have more hawsepipe mariners than say deep-sea.
1 Like
A good friend of mine was an engineer officer in our navy. For the first two years he went through junior officers training, with bridge time and celestial navigation. He then attended university where he gained a degree in mechanical engineering over 4 years. During the university holidays he had to complete all the practical elements of a fitting and turning apprenticeship in the naval dockyard workshops. On his return to sea duties he then had to obtain his qualifications to run the engineering department as understudy of the Engineer Officer before being placed in charge. After two years he was Sent to the UK for a 2 year postgraduate course in marine engineering.
In keeping with our practise he remained an engineer officer for his whole career rising through the ranks as superintendent of the dockyard and finally as director of engineering of the navy. On retirement he established a very successful vibration analysis company analysing performance of hydro dam turbines and other machinery.
He would probably been very bored as Ch.eng of a merchant ship.
I understand our Navy’s reasoning for doing things, it’s just to me (and probably us, as civilian mariners) insane to think that anyone can be an engineering officer or EOOW without being a career engineer with their entire course of study and purpose in life being solely engineering. It’d be like an HR person at Con Ed taking a turn at running the plant.
Two different worlds, two entirely different sets of needs.
4 Likes
In General Schwarzkopf’s book he tells the story about being put in charge of a unit that maintained helicopters. It’s how the military does things.
In the case of a commissioned officer being in charge of the eng dept, they are going to be put in charge of a fully functioning engine department arranged hierarchically with positions equivalent from wiper through 3 A/E to 1 A/E to Chief all filled by enlisted ratings, roughly the same as hawepipers, been through training schools, put in their time, tested etc.
This is true… hopefully the USCG in this plan realizes that military officers are mostly useless and just gives them RFPNW and RFPEW at most, and grants higher equivalency to the enlisted guys that actually know how to run a deck or engine room watch. Gimme a former CPO any day over some paper pusher O-3.
4 Likes
I agree but I doubt that happens. Companies are going to have to screen the unqualified O-3 paper pushers out. Which is hit or miss.
But it’s hit or miss anyway, more than a few slip by now. Bottom line is I don’t think this is going to add enough unqualified candidates to the pool that it’s going to make much difference.
Of course if you’re sailing as C/M and got passed over and Capt Paper Pusher got the job you’re going to be mad as hell.
2 Likes
There is nothing bold or new here. All of these things have been being worked on for years. Congress in December 2014 enacted Section 551 of Public Law 113-291 It requires the services to pay expenses of professional accreditation for members. It is broader than just merchant mariners and covers a wide-range of occupations.
“‘‘(b) PAYMENT of EXPENSES.—(1) Under the program required
by this section, the Secretary of Defense and the Secretary of
Homeland Security, with respect to the Coast Guard when it is
not operating as a service in the Navy, shall provide for the payment
of expenses of members for professional accreditation, Federal
occupational licenses, State-imposed and professional licenses,
professional certification, and related expenses.”
2 Likes
I was a former Navy SWO who just went through the transition process a year ago. The plan to aid transition was already being worked on, with program being reviewed and approved systematically. I worked closely with the coordinating officer who informed me that programs were working through Naval Surface Warfare School in Newport and also PQS from the QM, OS and BM rates. The real problem, at least for SWOs, is that the NMC does not recognize any of the military training towards the STCW endorsements. Any transitioning surface deck guy would require at least 6 months and thousands of dollars worth of classes to get the STCW endorsement in addition to passing the required mate or captains tests. The GI bill also does not recognize the STCW as a degree path, so 6 months worth of class would chew up almost 12 months of a GI bill.
As far as fulfilling a mariner need in the outbreak of a major war, the President could also direct the DHS, NMC and USCG to waive certain credential requirements and qualifications (like the need to comply with IMO standards) to man strategic manning levels. This executive order seems like a nice gesture and a nod to veterans and the maritime industry without accomplishing a great deal.
1 Like
The Coast Guard recognizes some, but apparently not the ones you took. You can see which scrolling to “U.S. Navy” or “USCG” here. The problem is, and has been for 20+ years, that the services have been somewhat recalcitrant about submitting their training to be reviewed and accepted. The NMC can’t accept it if they have never seen it. The 2015 the Howard Coble Coast Guard
and Maritime Transportation Act of 2014 and this executive order which repeats the relevant parts of the 2014 act, compel the services to identify their training and submit them to the NMC for evaluation and possible acceptance.
Even if all training was recognized, ex-Navy are still going to need courses and practical assessments for STCW. They are going to have to do anything that applies to stuff the Navy doesn’t do, e.g. cargo handling, stability (for cargo-carrying vessels), steam propulsion, etc.
As I noted above, and “DVanNevel” points out, it’s not new but it reinforces and possibly adds urgency to something that’s been out there for the past 5 years.
1 Like
That’s actually a good idea----amend the GI Bill requirements so that vocational training is on an equal footing with degree education. They are two different things, but both are valuable depending on the individual’s goals.
1 Like
Speaking of ABs, I sailed 2008-13, ended as a West Coast AB which came with a considerable raise. Now that the coasts are on the same pay scale, how did that go down, ie a raise for the East, drastic pay cut in the West? Musta been a lot of unhappy West Coast sailors.