[quote=tengineer;8395]Geez Mugsy, don’t get your drawers all in a wad over being ex Navy. Lord, some of the best I’ve run across were ex Navy [I almost said squids]. My comment was a “for instance” sort of thing. Hell, I drove a farm tractor and destroyed a lot of machinery before I went to sea and when I went it was as a private being driven around on ships by squids [yeah I said it]. So if anyone should never have succeeded in a merchant marine career, especially as an engineer, I qualify.
Everbody deserves a chance is all I was saying.
Cool?[/quote]
I wasn’t commenting on your comment! I was directing my comment to c captain. I just don’t understand how on one hand he can be complaining about mariners that are not American coming to the gulf ( which I can understand) then on the other hand complain about Americans coming from another sectors looking for work. If you were to read my earlier posts you would see that I am on the same page as you on the subject. Every American deserves a chance. My Drawers stay in a wad, Just something I have to live with. Cool?
It’s not a matter of American or anything else. It’s simply a matter of one’s preconceived notions being pawned off without any details or forethought. You would think “Pre-Conceived” would delineate some sort of logical process, but obviously is does not. Any fair minded individual would give all individuals a chance to prove themselves because we’re in a business where even the most experienced would have to do the same. With experience, you realize that, and realize that you can even learn something from a yachty, and nothing from a 20 year commercial veteran. That’s just how is goes sometimes. Foreigners don’t bother me as much either because I know how to look at both sides of the coin. It’s easy to say foreigners are bad without pointing out Americans working foreign. Bloviate and Debate is not one-in-the-same.
I was going to just let the thread die with others getting in the last word but you have challenged me so if you want a debate anchorman, let’s go…
I don’t think one person here actually read the article from the Triton Megayacht News since it was only put in with a link. Here it is in most of its entirety. Read it and you’ll see that yacht mariners are a club. The article reads like social column from some Palm Beach rag:
[B][B][SIZE=4]Even crystal ball won’t show future for disparate captains[/B][/SIZE][/B]
[LEFT][B][SIZE=3]The crisis in the financial markets has hit home for many yacht captains. But the funny thing is that it’s done so in lots of different ways. [/B][B]Whether captains are on a boat that has reigned in some costs, or let go from a yacht that plans to sit at the dock (and keeping only a mate or deckhand to keep her clean), or taking the lemons of this economic time to make lemonade by changing course in their lives, the stories reveal anything but a trend.[/B][/SIZE][/LEFT]
[LEFT][B][SIZE=3]They are looking for some comfort, I guess, and I tell them the best I can. [/B][B]Yes, some captains have been laid off, and as you might imagine, they don’t want their names to appear here. I try to encourage them to tell their stories, but somehow this industry – humans in general, I guess – see people who have been laid off as having some sort of flaw. [/B][B]It’s not your fault. It happens. Use this time to market yourself. Tell everyone you know you are looking for work. You never know where your next post will come from.[/B][/SIZE][/LEFT]
[LEFT][B][SIZE=3]But captains are also getting jobs. Capt. Gianni Brill has taken over M/Y [I]Perle Bleue[/I], the 124-foot Hakvoort. [/B][B]Brill helped return the yacht to Holland last spring for some warranty work and has been looking for a permanent post pretty much ever since. He was this close to moving back out to California to do something else with his life when [I]Perle Bleue[/I] took him on full time this fall. [/B][/SIZE][/LEFT]
[LEFT][B][SIZE=3]The yacht has been in Palm Beach so far this winter, waiting for charters for the Caribbean. But eventually, she plans to head back to Europe for Brill’s eighth trans-Atlantic and the summer charter season. [/B][B]“We have a happy crew of seven from New Zealand and England,” he said.[/B][/SIZE][/LEFT]
[LEFT][B][SIZE=3]There are other options, too. I’ve talked to a surprising number of captains who have been taking courses to position themselves for jobs in the commercial industry if things don’t loosen up after the holidays. [/B][B]Some don’t want their names published because they believe it would taint their chances of getting a yacht job should things shake loose, but Capt. David Hare sees his shift to commercial a wise career move.[/B][/LEFT]
[LEFT][B]Already hired by Edison Chouest in Louisiana, Hare is a training captain on a 280-foot supply vessel. When we spoke in mid-December, he was in his first tour of 28 days on, 14 days off and was, and I quote him here, “over the moon.”[/B][/LEFT]
[LEFT][B]“The crew is excellent, cooperative and all willing to assist me in the learning curve,” he said. “And the food is good. It’s not bad.”[/B]
[B]Hare hopes to follow a fast track that will raise his USCG license to a 6,000 ton endorsement. Though currently on a vessel of 1,860 grt, he said he’s expecting to be on a 5,500 grt vessel next tour. After 180 days on that ship, he will have the bigger tonnage endorsement as well as the Third Mate Unlimited endorsement, putting him on the unlimited ladder.[/B][/LEFT]
[LEFT][B][B][I][U]“It is conceivable that in five years I will have earned the Unlimited Masters/Any Ship/Any Ocean rating[/U][/I][/B], the PhD in the industry.”[/B]
[B]Hare approached the job strictly out of survival mode. [/B][/LEFT]
[LEFT][B]“I like to eat food,” he said by phone off duty. “I am $48,000 in debt with credit cards and school loans.”[/B][/LEFT]
[LEFT][B]I asked Hare if he would leave for a yacht job, and he said, without hesitating, no. [/B][B]“Now with the security I have here and the migration path,” he said. “And having 14 days off is very attractive to me. I can go anywhere in the world to relax for those 14 days.”[/B][/LEFT]
[LEFT][B]While the 12-hour shift can be physically and mentally demanding – imagine having to watch the dynamic positioning screen that is keeping the vessel 10m from the oil platform for two hours at the end of the shift – the 12 hours off he has each day are relaxing.[/B]
[B]“When I go to my bunk at 12 hours, no one would bother me unless the boat is sinking,” he said. "On yachts, I was forever being roused up for the smallest damn thing. I’m sleeping longer and better now than I have in 20 years at sea. [/B][B]“Just wanted to give you that update to let you know that I am happy, at peace and being treated well, vastly better than being on the beach fretting,” he said.[/B][/LEFT]
[LEFT][B]For those captains with jobs, most have just put their head down and kept working, even if the situation or owner wasn’t ideal. But Capt. Adam Lambert quit his post this fall when the demands of the owner got to be too much. [/B][B]“I’m just not going to accept that there are no jobs out there,” he said. “This one wasn’t working for me anymore so I left it. Tell captains you know that there’s a job out there.” [/B][/LEFT]
[LEFT][B]Other captains who are out of work have been a bit choosy, not wanting a certain size or itinerary. [/B][B]Capt. Bernard Charon has given up looking for that perfect owner and is working with Thierry Voisin at his firm in the south of France. Voisin has become an expert in the areas of VAT, customs and port issues in Europe, as well as taking the role of president of the Mediterranean Yacht Brokers Association this year. [/B][/LEFT]
[LEFT][B]So for all those folks wondering what’s going on “out there” in the world of yachting, it is everything you have heard, and the opposite. We’ve all heard it a million times, but it’s true: Every boat is different; every owner is different. [/B][B]I don’t have a crystal ball, but if I did, I have a feeling we would all see that the yachting industry will be just fine.[/B][/LEFT]
[/SIZE]
[LEFT]OK, read my words Anchorman…I do not believe that by running some rich man’s playtoy should qualify this guy for the unfair opportunity he is getting…all of the offshore restricted mariners who have previously complained on here that they can’t be able to upgrade their licenses to unrestricted should be just as angry as me. Were you not one of those who argued that was unfair. Now some guy from the yacht world comes along and gets a pass! Hell EVERY GoM mariner should be up in arms over this one.[/LEFT]
[LEFT]My words were misconstrued from the very start…my main complain what that guys who have been working their whole careers in that world should be allowed seatime to gain an unrestricted license even if he is a great master, mate, seaman whatever. If a man came to yachts from the commercial with a license in hand then of course keep a license but not use yacht time to upgrade it. You will note in the article the line highlighed in red.[/LEFT]
[LEFT]Ok, I’ll admit my prejudice towards yachties and I have been called out on that many times in this thread but MY MAIN ARGUMENT HAS BEEN ABOUT SEATIME. Should a mariner who has spent 20 years hanging around SE 17th Street in the Ft. Lauderdale social scene get a unrestricted license and come to work in the GoM when so many other men who have worked down here for 20 years cannot? [/LEFT]
[LEFT]Pray tell me why I am wrong with that one?[/LEFT]
I don’t know if you’re a walking oxymoron, or if it’s just Oxycontin. “Unfair Opportunity” is about as asinine as it gets.
One person will not make me stereotype a whole segment of our industry when I know better, regardless of what’s written in an article, but there is no reason the be upset at Hare for what was quoted. He will not be able to become an unlimited master on an OSV anyway.
anchorman…you still haven’t answered my closing argument
Well, it kinda hard to answer a question that is not that accurate and lacks details. First, you can shed a trade restricted license within the OSV industry. So, to say that people within the industry and that have 20 years experience “cannot” is not accurate. Not to mention it being impossible to have that license prior to it’s conception. If you were around 10 years ago, you would have got a unrestricted license with no STCW requirement.
So, if your’re asking if a 1,600ton yacht captain should be allowed to be hired by Edison Chouest Offshore to train on an OSV, I would say absolutely. If they didn’t work out, you send them down the road, just like Boudreaux and Thibodeaux. It doesn’t matter where from, it always comes down to who. This is an individual sport where demeanor, hardwork, and common sense rules. We all have one brain, two arms, and two legs.
I just worked with a unlimited Master on the KR Wheeler in Guam. He started in the yacht industry and taught celestial for MPT for several years. He was as competent as any person that I’ve ever worked with.
Well since most of us don’t know the sailing history of these people, you are just assuming that they spent their entire career in yachts. you know what happens when you assume…
The in the article Captain Hare states:
“On yachts, I was forever being roused up for the smallest damn thing. I’m sleeping longer and better now than I have in 20 years at sea”
ok…maybe 20 years on yachts, maybe not?
This will go on and on forever so I am going to quit this thread as I know that I am not going to convert anyone who is responding back and you aren’t gonna turn me so I’m leaving this dance…
If you want to gloat over some form of “victory” over my position then go right ahead…I’m too tired of this thread to care anymore
The guy who taught me a lot about running a boat, and a crew was from yachts, and not just that he was a sail boater. The worst if you ask me. Before I met him I thought all those guys were a waste of space on a boat, but after meeting him I learned that they are not all a waste, and just might have something to teach you.
In all honesty, if they come out and act like thier shit dosent stink, you put them on deck rigging and panitng and in the engine room changing oil and packing stuffing boxes for 6 months to break them down before letting them in the wheel house. If they come out and show a real intrest in learning how to hold a boat under a platform and know that they know nothing about the industry then you tech them just like any deckhand that want to get thier license while you still have them on deck and in the engine room.
[quote=c.captain;8425]The in the article Captain Hare states:
“On yachts, I was forever being roused up for the smallest damn thing. I’m sleeping longer and better now than I have in 20 years at sea”
ok…maybe 20 years on yachts, maybe not?
This will go on and on forever so I am going to quit this thread as I know that I am not going to convert anyone who is responding back and you aren’t gonna turn me so I’m leaving this dance…
If you want to gloat over some form of “victory” over my position then go right ahead…I’m too tired of this thread to care anymore[/quote]
That’s just plain stupid and not my intention.
I agree anchorman. I don’t think that was any of our intent to have a victory. I think the point, obviously missed, was that you cannot tar everyone with the same brush. And quoting one person who apparently spent his entire career in yachts does not mean everyone did.
I would imagine many would be hesitant to embrace openly someone who obviously did not have the experience necessary for a job. And I suspect that it may indeed be true for the person who did actually spend their entire life on yachts that they would have a lot of work ahead of them.
Over in Great Britain they do have a license for yacht captains. Every different vessel that I have sailed has brought new skills to my kit bag. The bottom line is you cannot legislate good judgement. As me old Daddy used to say “The proof in the puddin is in the eatin”. He never commanded anything bigger than a 47’ commercial fishing boat and I would have trusted his judgment on any size vessel. We all come from different back grounds that give us a broad spectrum of experiences to draw on. It wasn’t very long ago when “Bubba” was running the show and he had the same attitude about outsiders coming in to take his job, now we come from all over the country. So ease up and help your brother mariner make his way, you never go by a ship cast adrift on a sea of uncertainty, without asking if they need a tow.
If the fellow cannot do the job get rid of them. I know what you mean though.
Like taking a Captain of a US Naval ship and sticking them on a commercial ship. They do not have a clue but get seatime in the Navy to take the Unlimited Masters exam. Can’t stand a sea watch without 12 people on the bridge doing their job for them but the CG thinks they are qualified to be a Master on a commercial ship. Go figure.
Try putting a 170 ft boat with a 500k paint job, with no tires,on a dock with no tires.
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Sorry, and with no stern controls.
[QUOTE=Rickt;127190]Try putting a 170 ft boat with a 500k paint job, with no tires,on a dock with no tires.
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Sorry, and with no stern controls.[/QUOTE]
Who needs stern controls when you have enough thrusters to be DP-4 and a remote control clipped to your belt?
Edit, and nice necro thread!
And tons of clam. LoL
Whooooo caresssssssssss
[QUOTE=z-drive;127206]Whooooo caresssssssssss[/QUOTE]
I think the real reason none of us care is not because of the level of skill involved but because yachties don’t actually contribute anything productive to either the industry as a whole or society in general. Who wants to ferry a bunch of brats around all day? I’m not anti-rich people, I love rich people, mostly because I want to become one of them some day. But really, who wants to be subjected to that kind of punishment and what does it really accomplish? No one and nothing.
The economy [B][U]does not[/U][/B] benefit from some greased-up mob lawyer being carted around on a floating ball of chrome. The economy benefits from the diesel fuel I delivered on an ATB, or the jet fuel, or the home heating oil. Those products that I helped transport went directly into the lives of every day people who were driving, flying, and heating their homes. Those are the things that matter in this industry. That’s what gets me up in the morning.
You can keep your chrome and your Kardashians. I’ll take and intercon coupling system and some nice high-grade jet fuel any day.
If the Yacht guys are nice people and have a good head on their shoulders, who cares if they are coming over to the workboat side? They will either get with the pace or get run off, depending on their attitudes etc. I briefly worked with an unlimited tonnage master on tugboats. He didn’t last long.
There are many large yachts today over 3000 GRT that require unlimited licenses and significant sea time before you get to “play.” In yachting any form of a limited license does not get you in the big leagues.
With the even time rotations, fantastic equipment and conditions, and shall we “significant” pay, there is little interest in swapping over to offshore, with rare exception. Is offshore great? Yeah sometimes and I love the work because it is personally interesting to me.
But say in giga-yachting USD 180-200k a year for an unlimited chief with even time rotation, business flights to the door, paid training, benefits and every Snap On tool, supply and OEM special tools you will ever use aboard. Just saying. Top captains get yet “significantly more” again and if they are getting the boat charters based on their good reputation and past good service, they earn a few percent of the charter fees that range from $200-800k a week. Do the math. And if you do not bugger the guest’s daughters and get caught, even the deckhand and galley utility will share in the tip pool of several thousand (per person) a week… cash money euros in sweaty hand thank you very much.
So it pays to be a true professional and excel at your job, be it driving a boat load of Russian hookers for two weeks, or flying across the Atlantic in a private jet to meet the Boss for 45 minutes to discuss next summer’s cruising plan. And yes, the top people can handle boats as good or better than anyone in the oil patch - for sure no doubt. It is all in the man, not the place.
For yachts under 3000 tons, but say over 1000 tons, there are a full range of operational and management skills required as well, as most yachts in this category operate year round with crews of up to 25, and sail worldwide. The variety of experience gained is quite interesting - this from an observer’s view point. Some people are very capable and professional would be an asset no matter where they work - and others not so. Put them below to “break them” …? what a waste. If a guy onboard is wanker then just move him along and save the aggravation. Otherwise delegate him to deal with something and see if he has got the right stuff.
Not every yacht person is a Rodney Dangerfield. In fact if they are, they do not last long in the mega and giga-yacht sector, and perhaps that is when they move on … A good person is NEVER unemployed long in yachting, good time or bad - and PS right now times are flat out good. Anyone saying otherwise is full of it.